Menu
What's new
By:
Advanced search...

Diesel...cold start problem

Graphite Pearl

Graphite Pearl

Members
Messages
197
Reaction score
11
Location
Lincolnshire
Car
ES GT iDTEC
Hi, Well just collected new (well new to me) Sport diesel on saturday, overall I am very pleased with it, there are a few things that require attention, a trip to Faddy for one, but this one didnt show up when I went to originally view the car (it was already warm)..what happens from cold, when I turn it over it rumbles and vibrates but doesnt fire, i then immediatly try again and it starts perfect.....it does this only when cold ..any ideas?...it has had its full filter service about 6k ago and a new clutch at 20k ago. Runs and drives perfect, just the cold starting issue.
 
My initial thoughts would be the fuel filter is either fitted incorrectly or its not a genuine Honda one?
 
I would also put it down to either frozen diesel (not likely in this weather) or low pressure due to either a blocked filter or non genuine filter.

congrats on the new car by the way
 
try to warm up glow plugs few times before you actually start up, if this will help means that glow plugs needs to be replaced
 
yeah i thought of FF but Holcroft Honda did a full filter change last year, but I guess some ***** could have got in...have put some diesel cleaner in this full tank and will start with 2T oil next tank , may go to dealer and get them to fit new fuel filter to be sure or is it something that I can do easily with basic mechanical knowlegde...I know my A4 was a pain to change.

Will try the glow plug thing also, ...its the shaking that concerns me as if an engine mount has gone soft or something similar.
 
Actually when you book for the remap, we also carry out a full diagnostic and health check. I can run a glow plug test on it at that time to eliminate that as a probable cause.
 
Blue Toffee said:
yeah i thought of FF but Holcroft Honda did a full filter change last year, but I guess some ***** could have got in...have put some diesel cleaner in this full tank and will start with 2T oil next tank , may go to dealer and get them to fit new fuel filter to be sure or is it something that I can do easily with basic mechanical knowlegde...I know my A4 was a pain to change.

Will try the glow plug thing also, ...its the shaking that concerns me as if an engine mount has gone soft or something similar.
Click to expand...
..you can both drain and vent the fuel filter to remove water and air, etc, that may have accumulated there. If you think it might help to use diesel cleaner then I have found BG244 to be effective (can get from eBay), but I'm not sure that 2T will help your problem.
 
brodziu said:
it may be engine mount or dmf which can also cause some shaking.
Click to expand...

If it was the dreaded DMF though surely that would shake each time it is started, this only seems to happen when cold..it turns over shudders then stops...next time it turns over perfect.
 
Well been to Honda to diagnose problem and found to be High Pressure Fule Pump on its way out.....total cost to replace just shy of £2000...wtf???...any of you guys have any ideas ..is it an easy part to find refurbished and fit myself?...does the ecu need recoding if i get a second hand one?

Gutted but hope to find a cheaper way to resolve the issue .
 
What miles is it on mate? get a second opinion, a failed HPP doesn't sound right there would be other symptoms.
 
Its done 87K and yes its pretty much every time you start from cold, they said its just in the required parameters, the pressur is ok when running but during start up thats when it is low.

There is not many other people I would trust for a second opinion around me tbh. Even had the cheek to charge me £46 to diagnose and tell me the bad news .
 
I would try a fuel cleaner like bg and follow up with new ff first. Is the battery original, do let the glow plug light extinguish before starting.
 
Salim said:
I would try a fuel cleaner like bg and follow up with new ff first. Is the battery original, do let the glow plug light extinguish before starting.
Click to expand...

Yeah done all that thanks Sal, with the exception of the fuel filter so will change that, but I do think it could be the HPP pump.....Honda have come back saying they can fit a non Honda pump for £529.00 inc vat so thats a bit of an easier pill to swallow....just looking to see if its worth getting a second hand one from ebay...but could end up with a duff one again.
 
I'm surprised that a cold starting issue has been attributed to the HPP, but if HH say so...

I'd expect any weakness in the main part of the pump to show up when the engines being hammered up a hill (or similar) - and this also goes for the FF - as this would be when fuel demand is at its greatest. And if HH put a FF on last year I can't see it being much of an issue (unless you've done shedloads of miles since?), but you probably should drain and vent it to make sure you haven't got excess water and/or air in it. I recently had a 'show-stopping' issue with my HPP and it wasn't the actual pump but the internal regulator valve (M-Prop valve) inside the HPP ***embly that had become a bit sticky (do a search on 'P0088' and you'll find my thread) - the electrical connections to the HPP go onto this valve. Unfortunately Honda don't sell this part separately so you have to spend the full amount necessary for the entire HPP ***embly ( £1958 + VAT, IIRC !!!). I managed to free up the valve by tapping it and using BG244 and - fingers crossed - it still runs fine several months/Kmiles later.

Pump isn't coded to the ECU, so you could buy and fit your own, but - as you say - where would you confidently buy a good one? The £529 quoted sounds pretty reasonable if you do have to have a new pump fitted.
 
Sorry, this was diagnosed by HH? I don't think I saw that anywhere in the posts?

As I said there would be other symptoms of a failing HPP, and not simply a starting problem. I would change the fuel filter first and see what impact that has.

Also, how strong is your battery? a weak battery on these cars surprisingly has very similar symptoms.
 
You said Honda has said they can fit an after market pump.
I thought this was against any Honda dealers policey to fit after market conponanents.
 
F6HAD said:
Sorry, this was diagnosed by HH? I don't think I saw that anywhere in the posts?

As I said there would be other symptoms of a failing HPP, and not simply a starting problem. I would change the fuel filter first and see what impact that has.

Also, how strong is your battery? a weak battery on these cars surprisingly has very similar symptoms.
Click to expand...

OK, my mistake - not HH (if their solicitors are looking - apologies guys), but a Honda garage nevertheless and you would expect that they would have suitable diagnostic equipment and know how to diagnose a dodgy fuel pump (wouldn't you? :unsure:) which was actually my point. But I do agree that this is a surprising diagnosis.

The OP would be brave to ignore a Honda diagnosis and would presumably have some come-back on them if they fit a replacement (non-Honda?) HPP and it turns out to be, say, the fuel filter?
 
A very important question - was this bought privately or from a dealer? The reason for asking is that if it was from a dealer then it's the dealer's responsibility to put it right, at his expense. The Sale of Goods Act is your friend in these circumstances.

Alan
 
Thanks guys and no it wasnt HH i am sure I would have got a better response from them, I bought the car privately...advertised on here actually. Went to collect it today and they are adament that it is the HPP and not the FF, say they have undertaken pressure tests on the pump and found it loses pressure quickly on start up but fine when normal running...is this feasable? Have sourced a Bosch HPP from ebay for £200 which is tempting , not sure how easy the fitting is however but Honda say they will fit it for an hours labour £90 without any warranty of course.
So im a bit undecided, they say there is no rush as it is still withing the operating parameters, the actual fault is when starting it turns over a lot until it fires...if you keep the key turned, if not it will just stop and then second time it will fire staright away, which i guess you have built up a bit of pressure by then????...just guessing really.
Anyway thanks for all your comments, will have to make a decision soon as I dont want it failing on me plus the added starin on engine mountings etc while it starts poorly.
 
You've not mentioned the ECU warning light, so I've ***umed that it hasn't been lighting up? Even so, codes from previous issues are stored on the ECU and - if not deleted - may be be read off. This may give some useful insight into historical problems.

Are you sure the general vibration and shaking isn't the fuel pressure relief line from the offside end of the fuel rail returning fuel to the tank? With the engine acoustic cover removed this pipe can be seen flexing and twitching if the mechanical over-pressure regulator it connects to opens up to prevent fuel rail over-pressurisation. From within the car it makes a surprisingly loud banging noise and the engine will run rough when this condition exists (my HPP fault caused over-pressurisation leading to this situation, but maybe you have a faulty relief valve that initially allows fuel to leak back to the tank?).

A leaky injector will make it harder for the pump to initially pressurise the fuel rail, and this was the experience of a recent poster who replaced the pump first. But I would have expected the Honda diagnostics to have picked this up.

Disappointing that you bought the car on here!! I hope the seller is reading this with some shame - have you looked at his posts to see if he experienced problems before selling?

Edit - If (and it's a big if) it does turn out to be the pressure relieve valve, then PM me as I have a complete fuel rail (with relief valve and pressure sensor) that I wrongly removed from my car and replaced when I was working through my problems.
 
Well, it was a question worth asking.

Turning to the symptoms I'd say they are compatible with a worn but not knackered pump (car misfuelled at some point?). The ECU will not fire the injectors until it sees a certain minimum pressure in the fuel rail. When you're using the starter the engine turns over relatively slowly and so there is more time for the pressure to decay due to the worn pump. Once the engine is running it's turning over much faster, even at idle, and so the pressure is maintained at a higher level. That's a simplistic explanation but it gives an idea of what may be happening. If the pump was seriously worn the car wouldn't start at all.

I ***ume the dealer has done leak off tests on the injectors and made sure that there are no air leaks in the fuel supply to the pump as both of those could cause similar symptoms.

A second-hand pump is always going to be a bit of a gamble, you may be lucky or you may not. The subject of the "non-Honda" pump makes me a laugh a bit because Honda do not manufacture the pumps so really they're all "non-Honda". I suspect that they really mean a new pump or a refurbished one. As to fitting it I'd suggest that, unless you are confident, you leave it to a trained mechanic. It's a simple enough job but the pressures on the HP side of the pump and in the piping from the pump to fuel rail are very high and even the slightest leak has the potential to cause you serious injury.

Alan
 
Alan is correct if brought from a Honda approved dealers you should have a 12 month warrenty.
 
Thanks again for ypur comments guys and yes all valid points, looks like systematic trial and error operation. There are no ECU lights and they told me that it has no recorded faults either.
I may just bite the bullet and go with their diagnosis and plump for the cheaper 'aftermarket' pump, that way I will get the warranty as suggested and IF it doesnt turn out to be the pump then I will have a case to argue by going with what they are saying the fault is.

As Alan says the pump is not totally worn and still within the parameters of pressure that Honda set, I just dont like the idea of running it when it is like this.

Jon ...thanks for the offer mate will consider it once I have decided which way to go on this.
 
I had a similar problem which was initially diagnosed as the fuel pump. I sourced one from a scrap yard for £190 and my Honda garage fitted it for £50 labour only. Unfortunately the fault was not the fuel pump. However I still have my original one which you can have to try if you wish. It's quite easy to fit once you get the air filter removed. It may cost a bit to post as it's quite heavy. Let me know if you want it.
 
Pete You have PM....thanks
 
I'm not saying it's not the pump... just that I'd be looking elsewhere for fuel pressure problems before i went to the pump on an Accord with this mileage. Actually I would consider taking it to HH for a proper opinion.
 
F6HAD said:
I'm not saying it's not the pump... just that I'd be looking elsewhere for fuel pressure problems before i went to the pump on an Accord with this mileage. Actually I would consider taking it to HH for a proper opinion.
Click to expand...

I know your not mate and I really do appreciate your s and everyones advice on here it has helped a lot, I have been offered a pump from Pete (thanks mate) to try now so will see if that cures the problem, this is the cheapest option and will at least rule out the pump or not ...just hope I can fit it myself, father-in-law as a mechanic before he retired so his guidance will help and he has it seems shares in snap on so no issue with not having the tools. If that cures it then great if not then I think you are right a trip to HH beckons.

Just as a matter of interest, the pump I have been offered by Pete has done 144k miles, would that still be ok you think? I guess it depends on what sort of miles ....apparently it was working when it came off Petes car.

Thanks again
 
I don't know of anyone who's changed a pump themselves on one of these before.. so I guess you'll only know once you try.. Good luck mate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top