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Decat?

marv_ek4

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Accord Sport 2002
Hi guys, was wondering if anyone on here are running a decat? If so what happens with the o2 sensor thats at the rear of the cat? Would fitting this into a decat not turn the engine management light on? Any help/advice would be great.

Cheers
 
Probably it would, as both lambda/O2 sensors would see the same conditions. But you could fit a cat fooler to put this right... http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=cat+fooler&_sacat=131090&_from=R40 ...so it gives a different reading on the post-cat sensor
 
If you fit a decat you'll need to make sure there is a spacer on it. That way the engine still reads that there is gas passing the O2 sensor, but doesn't cause the mil light to come on.
 
Is that the spacer that jon_G posted a link to? Thanks for the input guys! Anyone got a pic of their decat pipe?
 
Yup, that's the one. I've put pics on here of my decat before which shows the spacer, I'll have a look and see if I can find them.
 
Here you go dude. This is my car having it all fitted. Second pic down mate

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/613-a-few-mods/
 
Cheers Si. I take it you aint had any trouble with the engine light coming on? il get one ordered up, prob going to make the decat myself.

cheers
 
write somebody. how engine performance and fuel consumption changed after decat... I'm thinking to do the same if I can get better mileage
 
^^ good point I Second that!
 
Freer revving, better sound, not a real change in MPG be theoretically if you drive normally you should see a really small gain.
 
Remember the 2012 MOT rules for decat (if you are bothered) ;)

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/car-servicing-repair/mot-changes-2012.html
 
Thanks Simon!
 
MOT's spoil all our fun :( oh well, just more things to remember to swap back on to the car for MOT time :lol:
 
Without trying to sound rude, why do you want a decat?
 
To fit in with the "crowd" lol I'm joking
Main reason just to get full potential out of the car and allow the gasses to free Much easier
 
Flow*
 
Fair play to you. Its just that on non-turbo cars you need the back pressure. Not sure of the figures for the 1.8 or 2.0 Accord. I know that it gives a tiny gain on the H series though.

But it does sound good lol. And you'll defiantly see a freer revving car. Just not sure if as it decreases back pressure you might actually see a drop in power.
 
I thought back pressure was bad?? I'm fairly sure I read that a decent exhaust should be designed in order to ensure the exhaust gas flows quickly away from the cylinders, to aid scavenging. Surely having back pressure would result in a greater amount of exhaust gas remaining in the cylinder, which I'd have thought would hamper performance :unsure: I'm a complete layman though so I may well be completely wrong, but a fast flowing gas column in the exhaust makes sense to me :lol:
 
I'm not trying to offend anyone that wants to mod their car, or talk them out of it. But I know that N/A engines require a certain amount of back pressure to get the engine working at optimum, but FI engines just want to get rid of the gasses asap.

Hopefully someone will post a dyno graph of before and after on the F series engine.
 
If I get my decat done hopefully in the next week or two.
I'll get some dyno results up

Secondly the spacer to stop eml light where does that go? Does it plug into the 02 sensor or somewhere on the decat
 
The spacer goes into the cat, and holds the O2 sensor further from the gases.

On the second pic down, the decat can be seen with a pipe sticking out the side, that's the spacer

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/613-a-few-mods/
 
Iv now ordered my decat spacer and flanges im needing to make the decat. Il take pics along the way to show how iv done it. Should be a straighforward job aslong as the secondary o2 sensor comes out easily enough.
 
That helps a lot! Thanks
 
I understood that exhaust diameter must directly relate to the engine capacity and the size of the exhaust valves. I.e. it's a balancing act between flow velocities and how rapidly the hot exhaust gasses cool (and therefore slow down). You don't want to suddenly expose high pressure gasses to a vast cavern of space as they'll rapidly cool and slow down, not leaving the car as fast as you might like, but obviously you still want to free up the flow a bit to help the engine breathe more easily. So it's not so much about the decat itself, but making sure that whatever you do with your exhaust, you stay within safe working boundaries for the engine size. A professional custom exhaust place should be able to best advise you on this.

But don't take this as concrete advice, I'm just going off what I've read and don't have any first hand experience on this one as I'm still running a stock setup for now.
 
Steve from my understanding that's pretty much spot on for a N/A engine mate.

Really hope one of you guys puts a dyno graph of before and after decat. Even if you don't see any power gains though, you'll defiantly feel a freer revving engine.
 
Just to elaborate on Steve's post, about flow velocity, back pressure, is a misused term really, at low rpms there is low flow rate, not much air is passing through. To keep the velocity up, you squeeze the pipes diameter smaller.

At higher rpm there is loads of flow, and the piping can get maxxed out, restricts peak outputs, but the low down torque is optimised. ALL road going oem exhaust systems are designed for low rpm operation. Increasing the diameter, and replacing parts with decats/hollow piping, means that you are changing the optimised rpm range up the rpm range.

So in summary by adding larger diameter/decat/straight silencers all you are doing is moving the power band higher up the rev range. This is great is you are using the rpms, bad if you dont drive at the upper rpms. All Honda respond well to exhaust mods, because they are designed for higher rpm range, the exhausts put on oem are designed to try and make a high revving car good low down.
 
I don't think you do need back pressure in the exhaust system, here's the article I read when I was thinking of fabbing up my own exhaust

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/frequently-answered-dsm-questions/168578-exhaust-straight-scoop-backpressure.html

I know you can't believe everything you read on the web, but from a physics point of view it makes sense. Back pressure is going to increase the amount of power the engine has to use in order to force the exhaust gasses out the cylinder on the final stroke. He explains the reason for losing torque at low RPM's nicely too.
 
^ an excellent article, everyone should read it.

One other thing to add though .... on stock exhausts the valve lift, duration, and timing has been "tuned" by the engine desinger to match the exhaust. So if you remove an exhaust without altering the valve lift. duration, or timing, you'll lose power all the way through the rev range.

Many years ago I had a Citroen DS 23 EFI .... 2.3 litre 4-cylinder engine with factory fitted Bosch EFI, 143 BHP. The flexi on the down-pipe was weak, and when it went, there was no power in the car at all, not even at high revs. That is down to the fixed valve timing. Fixed valve timing is a compromise when matched with the desgined exhaust, to give the most flexible torque/power curve possible.

I presume that the engine tuners on VTEC non-turb, tune the valve timing differently when the exhuast is changed. You can't alter the valve timing on a non-VTEC engine. But, you can alter the turbo boost on a trubo car ....the turbo is pushing the air through after all.
 
That is a great read. So great in fact, I'm copying and pasting it here:



There is a common misconception that engines need backpressure in order to run properly, generate low end torque, etc. That is simply untrue. Backpressure is a bad thing. Always. Take a look at a top fuel dragster...how much backpressure do you think those zoomie headers make? Very little, and those engines produce 6500 hp.

So, what is backpressure? Any fluid flowing through a pipe experiences drag on the walls of the pipe. This depends on a number of factors, including the diameter of the pipe, the smoothness of the inside of the pipe, the viscosity of the fluid, and the velocity of the fluid. This drag results in a pressure drop through the pipe. In order for the fluid to flow at all, the pressure on one end of the pipe must be higher than at the other. In an exhaust system, that pressure drop is what we refer to as backpressure. It's pretty obvious that the engine has to produce this pressure differential, so the less power it has to spend making pressure to push the exhaust out, the more power it can send to the wheels.

Given that exhaust pipes are pretty smooth, and that we can't change the viscosity (thickness) of the waste gas being forced through the pipes, we are left with basically 2 parameters we can have any control over: The pipe diameter and the gas velocity.

Unfortunately, the pipe diameter controls the gas velocity since the volume of gas is prescribed by the engine. So, we really only have one thing we can change. So, bigger pipes allow less pressure drop for a given volume of gas because the velocity is lower. The pressure drop (backpressure increase) is proportional the gas velocity squared, so if I double the gas velocity (by reducing the cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe by half) then I quadruple the pressure drop.

Well, there's an easy solution for that: Just make the exhaust pipe bigger. Bigger pipe, lower gas velocity, less pressure drop, so less backpressure. Wow, that was easy. After all, this is the way it's done for basically any type of commercial plumbing system. Need less pressure drop on a chilled water pipe or a natural gas line? Just make the pipe bigger.

But wait, there's a problem....Having a huge exhaust pipe has killed my low end torque!!! What's different? Oh, there's no backpressure!! Therefore backpressure makes torque!

Wrong.

An exhaust system is different than just about any other plumbing situation. How? Because the flow is pulsed, and this turns out to be a big deal. Every time a pulse of exhaust gas runs through the pipe, a strange thing happens: it as it passes, it has a little area of vacuum behind it. Just like a NASCAR stocker running around the track, the pulse generates a little bit of a vacuum behind it. In NASCAR, a driver can take advantage of another driver's vacuum by getting right behind him and driving in it. The wind resistance is drastically reduced. This is called drafting.

Well, how big the vacuum behind each pules is depends on the gas velocity. The higher the velocity, the bigger the vacuum the pulse has behind it.

Now, this means that I can "draft" the next pulse, just like in NASCAR. In NASCAR, it's called drafting, in an exhaust system, it's called scavenging. You've probably seen this term used when talking about headers, but the same concept applies in the pipe.

I get the maximum scavenging effect if the gas velocity is high, so the pipe needs to be small. By maximizing the scavenging effect, I help to pull pulses out of the combustion chamber, which means the engine doesn't have to work as hard to do that.

This has the most effect when there's a bunch of time between pulses...in other words, at low rpm. As the revs rise, the pulsed flow becomes more and more like constant flow, and the scavenging effect is diminished.

So, at low rpm I need a small pipe to maximize scavenging, and at high rpm I need a big pipe to minimize pressure drop. My exhaust pipe can only be one size, so it's a compromise. For a given engine, one pipe diameter will make the most overall power (i.e., have the largest area under the curve on a dyno chart).

So, the loss of torque has nothing to do with backpressure, and everything to do with gas velocity. So you need exhaust components that are not restricive (manifolds/headers, ****lers) and that are sized correctly for your application.

To further dispel the "backpressure is necessary" theory, try this if you want. If you have access to a vehicle with open headers, make a block off plate that will bolt to the collector. This plate should have only a 1" hole in it for the exhaust to flow through. That will give you PLENTY of backpressure, and zero scavenging. Then you can report back on how much low end power it has.

The one exception to sizing an exhaust is for turbo cars. Since the turbo is in the exaust stream, the gas flow spinning the impeller tends to come out of the turbo with the pulses greatly diminished. In this case, you can get away with running a larger pipe than on an equivalent HP N/A engine because you can't take as much advantage of the scavenging effect.




So yes, pipe diameter needs to be right for your application. It's not as simple as bigger is better (not for a road car anyway). But not because of Back Pressure, but rather Scavenging and the compromise between not losing torque at low rev day-to-day driving, and maximising performance at high revving, enthusiastic driving. So we're barking up the right tree, we just need to better understand the underlying principles. But this article is awesome indeed.

Anyway, I've always been under the impression that for the Accords around the 2litre size, 2.5" stainless steel, minimal ****ling (to your taste in volume) and the issue of the cat or no cat is more an issue of noise and MOT-ability. But the 2.5" was the main thing regards size. Does this sound correct to other people?
 
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