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Fuel Pump Solenoid Removal

J

Jon_G

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Location
Nr Ludlow, Shropshire
Car
2005 Tourer i-CTDi
Does anyone know if the electrical solenoid controlling the pressure control (M-prop) valve on the high pressure diesel pump is straightforward to remove? Mine has a long-term intermittant short circuit fault* (giving rise to the fairly rare P1059 DTC) which has got a lot worse recently, to the extent that on Friday I had to be towed home by a neighbour.

It looks as though it's simply held on with a couple of screws that will be easy to get at with the airbox removed, but I thought I'd ask before removing it... hopefully I can then either dig out what's causing the short circuit, or (more likely) replace the solenoid, maybe with a secondhand one from someone's old and/or worn pump.

*For info, when it's OK (and the car starts and runs well) the resistance on the solenoid electrical connector is around 3 ohms but yesterday it was down to 1.3 ohms, meaning the car won't start and continually throws up the P1059 DTC... http://www.micro-tronik.com/faultcodes/obdiifaultcode_p1059.html (where "Metering Unit Actuator" = electrical solenoid).

Any advice appreciated.
 
I don't know the answer to your question, Jon, but exploded diagrams I've seen of this pump suggest it can be removed by simply taking out the screws. What I don't know is when putting it back if any adjustment is needed.

A slight tangent I know but here's a link to one of the best articles I've come across explaining what the various parts of a CR system do - www.yildiz.edu.tr/~oisin/Dersler/Dersnotlari/0653611/dinjection.pdf
 
H Peasource said:
I don't know the answer to your question, Jon, but exploded diagrams I've seen of this pump suggest it can be removed by simply taking out the screws. What I don't know is when putting it back if any adjustment is needed.

A slight tangent I know but here's a link to one of the best articles I've come across explaining what the various parts of a CR system do - www.yildiz.edu.tr/~oisin/Dersler/Dersnotlari/0653611/dinjection.pdf
Click to expand...
Thanks Alan, I've added that useful document to my favourites... the Bosch CP3 pump referred to has a similar metering unit to what I can see on mine, but mine does look as though the solenoid will come off the valve. I'm just a little worried that there'll be an actuating rod or spacers, etc, that might tumble out when I remove the solenoid, so I'll have to be careful!

Calibration should be taken care of via the ECU feedback loop of sensing the rail pressure to determine the 'throttling' requirements for the pressure control valve, and then it will keep making pulsed corrections until the rail pressure is within limits. I've previously used this document as my guide... http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/052010_09.pdf
 
Update... I've now removed what I thought was just the solenoid, but it is actually the solenoid complete with the piston that throttles the fuel supply to the pump (and it was 3 torx screws holding it onto the pump, not 2 as I suggested before).

It's made by Bosch, but has no visible part number... I've had a look at an exploded diagram on the Ling's website and Honda don't show it as a separate Honda part number, so does anyone know where I can get one of these?
 
The pump fitted to your car is not just similar, it is a Bosch CP3 - they come in slightly differing variants for various applications. Managed to find this American article - http://www.dieselbombers.com/chevrolet-gmc-diesel-tech-articles/5453-cp3-modifications-you-can-do-yourself.html - on modifying the CP3 which shows the actuator removed. It doesn't look like anything should fall out when you remove it.

If you want a definitve answer you could try talking to someone like AP Diesels or Darwen Diesels. They'd certainly know, but would probably expect you to buy the solenoid from them as a quid pro quo.
 
Jon_G said:
It's made by Bosch, but has no visible part number... I've had a look at an exploded diagram on the Ling's website and Honda don't show it as a separate Honda part number, so does anyone know where I can get one of these?
Click to expand...

Our posts crossed. My suggestion would be the two firms I mentioned in my earlier post. It is critical that you get the right one for the Honda i-cdti engine - although they all look the same from the outside they are different internally.

The pump part number, should you need it, is 16790-RBD-E02 which translates into Bosch part number 0 445 010 141.
 
Thanks again Alan for the further information. I've sent a message to AP Diesels via their website asking for info, but I'll probably call both them and Darwen Diesels on Tuesday (busy tomorrow). Looking at the AP catalogue it was interesting that there are different actuators for the Bosch CP3, but none looked like mine (all pictured had a straight electrical connector, but mine is angled).

Anyway, for the benefit of anyone else who has to do this in the future, here's some photos:

Where the actuator was removed from, looking over the nsf wing with the airbox removed...
actuator_location_zpsd519dc05.jpg




Actuator removed (1)...
100_0580_zpsb800d112.jpg




Actuator removed (2)...
100_0579_zps1bcc3190.jpg
 
H Peasource said:
The pump part number, should you need it, is 16790-RBD-E02 which translates into Bosch part number 0 445 010 141.
Click to expand...
OMG that Honda part number 16790-RBD-E02 is the pump complete item 13 here ...... £2,018 :eek: !!!! :eek:
And it looks like Honda only sell the complete pump, not individual parts for the pump
It's crazy if Honda don't source that indivudal part, Jon let's hope you can get that part mate :unsure:
 
freddofrog said:
OMG that Honda part number 16790-RBD-E02 is the pump complete item 13 here ...... £2,018 :eek: !!!! :eek:
And it looks like Honda only sell the complete pump, not individual parts for the pump
It's crazy if Honda don't source that indivudal part, Jon let's hope you can get that part mate :unsure:
Click to expand...
Hi Brian, yes and I believe that's without the VAT? Either way, that's more than the old girl is worth! Slightly frustrating that the diagram does actually show the actuator without listing it as a separately available part, but maybe Honda do sell it anyway?

Maybe you've noticed my 'wanted' ad (http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/12705-wanted-fuel-pressure-regulator-valve-for-22-i-ctdi/page__pid__141072#entry141072) I'm obviously hoping that someone who's replaced their diesel pump still has the complete old one and can sell me the actuator from it... here's hoping. Otherwise I should be able to get one from one of the diesel specialist suggested by Alan (I've now sent messages to both of them).

Having to use my wife's MR2 roadster today, and - while it is fun - it's also a tight fit!
 
freddofrog said:
OMG that Honda part number 16790-RBD-E02 is the pump complete item 13 here ...... £2,018 :eek: !!!! :eek:
And it looks like Honda only sell the complete pump, not individual parts for the pump
It's crazy if Honda don't source that indivudal part, Jon let's hope you can get that part mate :unsure:
Click to expand...

Car manufacturers spares prices can be, shall we say, interesting. I wonder what price you'd get by phoning a Bosch Diesel Service Centre - my bet ls less than half Honda's price. It's not just Honda though, a chap I know has just had to have a damaged propshaft UJ replaced on a Nissan Navarra. Nissan won't sell the UJ, only the complete propshaft, and quoted £600-odd to supply and replace. The cost of a quality UJ from an alternative supplier was £18. Add say £100 for fitting and it leaves you wondering where the manufacturers get their prices from.
 
Yeah I saw your "wanted" post Jon, didn't want to clog it up with a pointless post from me in it :lol:

I saw the actuator on the drawing, I nice detailed little drawing indeed.

Can you just imagine someone with your year of car who's clueless about DIY having their car towed to a dealer with this problem back in, say, 2010. Then they get quoted £2k plus labour !!!! It must have happened at least once somewhere in the world !!!
 
freddofrog said:
Yeah I saw your "wanted" post Jon, didn't want to clog it up with a pointless post from me in it :lol:

I saw the actuator on the drawing, I nice detailed little drawing indeed.

Can you just imagine someone with your year of car who's clueless about DIY having their car towed to a dealer with this problem back in, say, 2010. Then they get quoted £2k plus labour !!!! It must have happened at least once somewhere in the world !!!
Click to expand...
Yep, someone somewhere must have paid that much for a replacement pump. What might make this even worse is that it may actually only have been the same part that I'm trying to get hold of, but they had to buy a whole new pump ***embly because Honda don't list it separately (or because the garage failed to properly diagnose the fault and only narrowed it down to the pump ***embly).

Still haven't had responses from either of the 2 diesel specialists I sent messages to... I'll have to chase them up today for a quote.
 
H Peasource said:
The pump part number, should you need it, is 16790-RBD-E02 which translates into Bosch part number 0 445 010 141.
Click to expand...
Just checked before phoning around, and the Honda part number for my pump is actually 16790-RBD-E01 which translates into Bosch part number 0 445 010 093. Odd, but probably makes no difference?
 
As you say a bit odd but clearly it's meant for a Honda as it has a Honda part number. One other rather obvious idea occurs to me belatedly - why not try your local Bosch Diesel Service Centre?
 
Hi Alan... just in the middle of phoning round all Bosch diesel specialists I can find a number for. I just wish there was one near enough for me to visit!

Cheapest so far is £75 +VAT (but not in stock 'for a few days') and cheapest in stock = £89 + VAT. This part is complete and includes the bit that looks like a piston with the 2 O-rings.
 
That's good to hear, Jon. Look at it this way - whichever you go for it's a £1900 saving on Honda's price for a complete pump.
 
Got one ordered yesterday - £93 (inc VAT & carriage), so not too bad. Obviously I'm really hoping to receive and fit it before Christmas, but fingers crossed.

Bosch Service Centres aren't really Bosch, they're simply independent garages, etc, with a franchise - of the 9 I contacted, all but one didn't actually hold this part, so had to get it delivered to them from Bosch and then post them on. I was frustrated that I couldn't cut out these middlemen (in order to save a bit of money and to get the part sooner) but Bosch only direct you to one of these agents. And I found the retail prices were very variable, so I did sucessfully haggle.

I'll update when she's running again.
 
Ah well just got to wait on the Royal mail now!

As you say Bosch Service Centres aren't actually run by Bosch. The one big advantage they do have, though, is access to the range of Bosch parts catalogues and technical info which is otherwise difficult to come by.
 
Nice to hear,that you found;)
 
Tomas44 said:
Nice to hear,that you found;)
Click to expand...
Thanks Tomas.

The good news is that this seems to be a fairly rare fault (at least on Honda diesels), as apparently no other members of this forum (or Civinfo, where I'm also a member) has suffered this problem!

But obviously the Bosch EDC16 ECU is programmed to anticipate a fault with this actuator/regulator ***embly, hence the dedicated P1059 (short circuit solenoid) and P1057 (open circuit solenoid) Diagnostic Trouble Codes.

I've also learnt during my 'investigations' (not just limited to Honda faults) that many instances of P0087 (low fuel rail pressure) and P0088 (high fuel rail pressure) DTCs are often caused by this actuator sticking and failing to control the pump output pressure. Indeed I did have a P0088 issue almost a year ago when the actuator became sticky and I dealt with this by tapping it fairly hard and also putting BG244 in the tank... with hindsight, when it was sticking the solenoid must have been working too hard, overheated and damaged the insulation. I've had a few random stoppages in the last year with the P1059 DTC, but clearing the ECU has previously allowed me to immediately re-start and run apparently perfectly again.
 
My car can't pass fuel presure test.Is it could be the same problem like yours?I am very interesting.OBD reader not showing any fault.
 
Tomas44 said:
My car can't pass fuel presure test.Is it could be the same problem like yours?I am very interesting.OBD reader not showing any fault.
Click to expand...
Hi Tomas - there is a electronic pressure sensor on the right hand end of the fuel rail (as you look under the bonnet) which informs the ECU of the exact rail pressure... as mentioned, if this pressure was outside the specified limits programmed into the ECU then it would flag a P0087 or P0088 DTC. So I'm not sure how you have a 'fuel pressure' problem without such indication, unless maybe your problem is at start up, which can be caused by many things, including a worn fuel pump :ph34r: , a leaking mechanical over-pressure relief (on left hand of fuel rail) or the injectors having excessive leak-off, which has been a problem experienced recently by a couple of members. Or, if you had the fuel pressure measured by a direct connection to the fuel rail pipework, then the electronic sensor might be playing up?

What pressure testing was performed to tell you there was a problem? And what symptoms are you suffering?

I have a fuel rail, complete with pressure sensor and relief valve in my shed that I now know was all working perfectly when I took it off my car nearly a year ago (I swopped it for another complete rail thinking it might cure my original problem, but it didn't make any difference). If all else fails you could try it on your car (and then buy it from me if you do need it), but I think there would be other simple and cheap things to try first (e.g. injector leak-off measurement tests).
 
I meet Fahad couple month ago.His recalibrated my two injectors,because before old injectors was bad.And car cant pass fuel presure pump test.Car smoking a lot.I am change EGR,two injectors and still the same.Maybe some problem with pump,but I am not sure.Still trying find a problem.Smoke is black sut,then you press acselerator pedal.Sorry for my english
 
Tomas44 said:
I meet Fahad couple month ago.His recalibrated my two injectors,because before old injectors was bad.And car cant pass fuel presure pump test.Car smoking a lot.I am change EGR,two injectors and still the same.Maybe some problem with pump,but I am not sure.Still trying find a problem.Smoke is black sut,then you press acselerator pedal.Sorry for my english
Click to expand...
Do you know how Fahad measured the fuel pressure, I'm guessing he used his HDS to do it, but I don't know if it's the start-up, idle or load pressures that are failing the test?

I have heard several people mention that their car smokes a lot more after a remap, so I guess that is to be expected.

I think Fahad would be the best person to discuss your fuel pressure problems with, as he will understand how the test was conducted and can probably suggest which of your engine parts might be worn.

If it is only the black smoke that is a noticeable problem, then that may not be too much of a problem? Are you getting good MPG?
 
Jon_G said:
Do you know how Fahad measured the fuel pressure, I'm guessing he used his HDS to do it, but I don't know if it's the start-up, idle or load pressures that are failing the test?

I have heard several people mention that their car smokes a lot more after a remap, so I guess that is to be expected.

I think Fahad would be the best person to discuss your fuel pressure problems with, as he will understand how the test was conducted and can probably suggest which of your engine parts might be worn.

If it is only the black smoke that is a noticeable problem, then that may not be too much of a problem? Are you getting good MPG?
Click to expand...

I try contact with him.His said,that could by high presure pump.But his not sure if it's can sorted problem.Always I trying find a problem,but no luck.Test was done with hds.
 
Tomas44 said:
I try contact with him.His said,that could by high presure pump.But his not sure if it's can sorted problem.Always I trying find a problem,but no luck.Test was done with hds.
Click to expand...
But apart from the black smoke, is it running well with good MPG? Does it start OK? It might just be that your engine is slightly worn in many places and so cannot reach the ideal pressures it did when it was new.

If it is the pump, then someone just offered me one here... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/12705-wanted-fuel-pressure-regulator-valve-for-22-i-ctdi/page__pid__141330#entry141330 but I can't be sure you need one.
 
Yes,runing well.I can get about 600miles with full tank.starts ok as well.
 
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