Engine Surges and Hesitates

Hi Guys

A while ago now I asked bout cleaning the EGR valve and a few of you gave me some valuable advice, thanks for that.

I had to do it again yesterday because I again started to get the engine surge/hesitate at light throttle. The last time I did it, the problem was solved but this time it has not gone away.

As I said, it is only at light throttle once the engine has warmed up and is quite noticeable.

Is there something else I should be looking at that is causing this to happen or what?

I did notice that the inlet manifold is pretty bad so I will be having a go at that when I get a new Gasket.

I read Simon1602's thread about cleaning the manifold and was amazed at the amount of sh*t that came out. He said that he removed the fuel rail to get at the manifold. I had a look at mine yesterday and it seems that it is fairly easy to unbolt the manifold and remove it without removing the fuel rail. Is it really necessary to do that? It would save a lot of time if I didn't have to.

Chesjak

A sooted-up manifold wouldn't cause this problem. I think the EGR valve isn't closing properly (or is slow to close)... simply cleaning it doesn't always fix it, so you need to check it by applying voltage to it (if pre-facelift model) or vacuum (if facelift) and checking it closes fully as soon as the drive signal is removed.

Hi Jon_G

Thanks for your reply. I had a good look at it yesterday when I cleaned it and it seems to close quite positively but must admit I didn't apply any power to it.

Is it 12v or what?

If this is working, is there anything else it could be.

Is yours a pre-facelift then? If so, here's a vidclip by TA member 'Jayok' who used to be a regular poster here on TA...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgFY10NgMtk
Where are you now Jason?

Jon_G said:

Where are you now Jason?

Click to expand...

He's in Jamaica http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/user/1966-jayok/

Blank and egr off remap, job done.

I know F6HAD

You suggested this last time but as it cleared up, I didn't pursue it.

Trouble is, you are in Halifax and I am on the South coast.

Do you do a re-maped chip I can just put in and if so how much.

Can't remember, did I ask you if it is MOT legal.

Your location isn't a problem mate. Drop me a line if still interested.

The solution includes supply and fitting of a blanking plate and diagnostics, it's not a simple case of fitting a chip.

Well Guys

I spent a very productive weekend cleaning the intake manifold and EGR etc. There was so much gung in the manifold that I am surprised the car went at all. Certainly got a lot more power and runs smoother now. I'll bet the fuel consumption improves as well.

Next job front rollbar bushes and drop links. Not looking forward to that. seems a bit of a job getting to the bolts on the bushes.



Many thanks to you guys for your help.

Regards

Good stuff - now you know why we offer a blanking service and why they run so much better with it disabled.

Hi again

Well, that was not the success I had hoped. For a while it was ok but it started playing up again. I have cleaned the intercooler to see if that helped but it didn't. Inside was not really dirty but the outside was clogged up with dirt and leaves etc like most radiators do which I have got rid of now.

It has got to a point now where the engine management light comes on and sometimes it goes into "limp home mode". If I park up and wait for a while it clears itself apart from the light staying on and then a while later it starts stuttering again.

I have checked the EGR valve which is electrically operated (pre facelift) and when I switch on the valve opens a couple of times before closing. When I switch the ignition off the valve opens and closes once.

It looks as if it is seated properly.

I read the posts about the fuel filter being a possible contender but I change it very frequently and it is always a Bosch which was the original on the car I believe.

I have seen the video you suggested Jon-G but not sure if it is the top two terminals to apply the voltage on or the bottom two. The guy seems to contradict himself when describing it.

One thing I can say is that whereas the valve opens and closes in the video with a sharp click, mine when I switch on seems to be quite soft in operation.

Lastly, does anyone know where I can pick up a cheap fault code reader, If I keep getting these problems I might as well get equipped but I can't afford the earth for it sadly.

I saw a couple on ebay for about twenty quid and sixty quid but not suitable for the Honda diesel.

I am getting so up tight about this so would really appreciate some help.

Regards

chesjak said:

Lastly, does anyone know where I can pick up a cheap fault code reader, If I keep getting these problems I might as well get equipped but I can't afford the earth for it sadly.

I saw a couple on ebay for about twenty quid and sixty quid but not suitable for the Honda diesel.

Click to expand...

Just search for ELM327 on ebay, they cost ~£5 . Usually you want a Bluetooth one for Android, WiFi for Apple. Then get an app for the phone.

e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152207495715

chesjak said:

I have seen the video you suggested Jon-G but not sure if it is the top two terminals to apply the voltage on or the bottom two. The guy seems to contradict himself when describing it.

Click to expand...

Click on "youtube" when the embedded video is playing and it opens separately in youtube. There's a comment under the video (1 year ago) asking the same question, he replies "You connect the 12V across the bottom two pole connectors. Don't worry about polarity, as it is a magnetic coil and not sensitive"


Other than that, I've no idea about the problems.

Hi Freddofrog

Thanks for that - it seems very cheap to do the job I want it for!!

Help me out here please, I'm not that advanced.

Are you saying that this will give me a list of any fault my car is throwing up.

If so
a) exactly where is it plugged in?
b) Exactly what app are do I get.
c) The site says that it does not work with Samsung (mine is a Samsung S6)
d)It says it does not work with Diesel cars ( I have a diesel car)

a) it plugs into the OBD port which is under the steering wheel to the right
b ) just search for an OBD2 app (or ELM327 app) for your phone
c) that comment in that ebay link only applies to the particular software the comes with it (I only chose that particular one on ebay because it had 5 star reviews)
d) most apps should also read the diesel codes

some technical info on OBD2 that I put up today in another thread --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23459-vsa-fault-elimination/page-2

Basically all ELM327 readers can read engine codes on any car in the world made after ~2002

Just put "ELM327 bluetooth" (without quotes) into the search in ebay there are thousands
If you select Located in United Kingdom, and Buy It Now, there are ~500

Reading that code could give a decent insight into your problem. I don't think you've wasted your time... at least the inlet is now lovely and clean!

If you need clarification on anything to do with that vidclip I posted, then do drop a PM to TA member 'Jayok' who originally posted it (and, I believe, made it). I've seen recent posts he's made in other threads, so he's still around... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/user/1966-jayok/

It's a shame that there are no OBD2 scanner-owning TA members near you who could jump in here and offer to read the code for you. We really need to have a forum thread where we can offer our services to nearby members!

In my direct experience, hesitancy can often be a symptom of a failing frequency solenoid valve (FSV) that controls the inlet manifold runner control (IMRC) and then also causes the engine warning light to come on due to the IMRC being in the wrong position (DTCs P2004, P2006 and/or P2008). The test for this is to simply pull the electrical connection off the FSV which will then magically cure the hesitancy, but will cause the engine warning light to come on (and, I recall, put the engine into limp mode).

I can vouch for the one I bought tbree days ago through Amazon. See thread on VSA light elimination. Works using wifi connection on both iPad and Android.

Interesting replies guys

Can I push my luck just a bit further.

Just to confirm, what I want to do is:

Read the engine fault codes and what they mean.
Use the codes to understand what exactly is causing the problem weather it be the imrc, egr valve, the fuel pressures or whatever.
Reset the fault codes back to zero so that they don't keep stacking up.

What android app is the best of the bunch to do this?

As a bonus it would be great to be able to search for fault codes on the whole car not just the engine. What setup do I need for this as well?

Cheers guys

chesjak said:

Interesting replies guys

Can I push my luck just a bit further.

Just to confirm, what I want to do is:

Read the engine fault codes and what they mean.
Use the codes to understand what exactly is causing the problem weather it be the imrc, egr valve, the fuel pressures or whatever.
Reset the fault codes back to zero so that they don't keep stacking up.

What android app is the best of the bunch to do this?

As a bonus it would be great to be able to search for fault codes on the whole car not just the engine. What setup do I need for this as well?

Cheers guys

Click to expand...

Yes, that's pretty much how to deal with engine fault codes.

The app you need depends on whether you have an Apple or Android device... the 'Torque' app is widely recommended for Android devices. And, if you do have an Android device, then you don't need the more expensive WiFi OBD2 interface, you can use a cheap Bluetooth version (such as a basic ELM327, which are on eBay from about £2.50!).

To read all vehicle error codes, then you'd need something like a Honda Diagnostic System (HDS)... cloned versions can be bought on eBay for around £100 or so. This will do far more than simply read/delete fault codes though, it'll run diagnostic routines which exercise and test the engine sub-systems.

Have you tried disconnecting the FSV like I suggested?

Just getting ready to do that Jon. I thought that I would get the stuff ordered first.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Strange thing is, yesterday the engine light was on, car kept going into limp home mode. I had to turn off the engine for about 10mins and then it would be fine again for a few minutes.

This morning when I took the dogs for a walk started the engine up, no light and no hesitation problems.

It seems that it is more prevalent when the engine warms up and is under very light throttle.

What equipment do you use then?

I have a stand-alone OBD2 scanner, actually a 2011 D900 model. Not really very exciting, reads/clears ECU diagnostic trouble codes and also displays real-time data, but nothing you couldn't do with an ELM327 that are available for about a tenth of what I paid for my scanner... I've just found that there is a 2017 D900 model available, which is about half the price I paid for mine... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/262955779685?chn=ps&adgroupid=39910041817&rlsatarget=pla-298947175889&abcId=1088896&adtype=pla&merchantid=113733085&poi=&googleloc=9045572&device=c&campaignid=805055692&crdt=0

Hi Jon

Started the engine up and disconnected the electrical connection to the FSV. Nothing happened at all even when I revved the engine.

Have taken it of and checked the filter which seems fine and looked for any damage but there is none.

It is the modified one with the filter attached directly to it so I hope I can ***ume that it does not have the same problem the older version had.

I have ordered the Bluetooth elm327 which will be here on Saturday and already downloaded the torque pro (looks useful) onto my Samsung so hopefully be in a better position on Saturday. The ERG valve certainly clicks on and off nicely.

chesjak said:

Hi Jon

Started the engine up and disconnected the electrical connection to the FSV. Nothing happened at all even when I revved the engine.

Have taken it of and checked the filter which seems fine and looked for any damage but there is none.

It is the modified one with the filter attached directly to it so I hope I can ***ume that it does not have the same problem the older version had.

I have ordered the Bluetooth elm327 which will be here on Saturday and already downloaded the torque pro (looks useful) onto my Samsung so hopefully be in a better position on Saturday. The ERG valve certainly clicks on and off nicely.

Click to expand...

Did you drive it with the FSV connection removed to see if the hesitation had gone? I agree that if you have the revised part then it probably isn't the FSV... off the top off my head I can't be sure about the original type number, but I think it's something like a Delphi 446 or a 466? Mine still has an original FSV and the air filter IS attached to the body. The later facelift ones had a remote filter.

You'll certainly know more when you can read the error code(s). There'll probably be several stored codes going back a few years, so you'll need to delete them and see which one(s) come back and relate to the current issue.

Always used to use a Wi-Fi obd2 connector and dashcommand on my old iphone.
Wi-Fi doodad went up the spout after about 3 years, so I really need to buy a replacement.

The issue is almost certainly your egr valve and I'm sure I've suggested this already somewhere. Cleaning it is pointless, the valve is slow operating as the plunger shaft will have slightly warped causing it to open and close slowly. Blank and egr off will solve it..

Hi Guys

OBD11 adaptor came this morning at last.

Plugged it in and used the Torque app on my Samsung via bluetooth to read the test results.

These were the results I got according to Torque App's own database.

P0098 Unknown
P0108 Manifold Absolute pressure/barometric pressure circuit high input
P0113 Intake air temperature circuit high input
P0118 Engine coolant temperature circuit high input
P0193 Fuel rail pressure sensor circuit high input
P0403 Exhaust gas recirculation control circuit
P1248 Seat/ Audi/VW injection start control deviation
P1384 BMW knock sensor 3 circuit
P2017 Intake manf runner position sensor/switch circuit high input
P2138 Throttle/pedal position sensor/switch D/E voltage correlation

No idea why I should get a readout for P1384 and P1248
P0118 was probably when I took it into the main dealer to have an exhaust manifold fitted u/g and they sent the car out to me without having topped the coolant back up.

I have looked up the fault codes on a couple of sites including one that is Honda specific and only don't seem to be able to find the P0098 code.

Using the save facility on the Torque App, I then reset the codes to see what pops up again when I drive it but I now find that when I "load Fault Codes" on the Torque App it comes back to me saying that ECU does not appear to support mode $06 and I cannot find the Fault code log I saved.

Any idea where this is saved. I would have thought it would have been save on my Samsung within the Torque app programme somewhere but it seems not.

I am still getting the same problem with the car. I put a 12v across the two terminals on the EGR valve and it clicks in and out very positively. I think I might have misled you F6HAD when I said the valve moved slowly. I suspect that was when it was setting its self when I switched the engine on and off.

If anyone can throw some light on that lot to help me resolve the problem It would be really helpful.

Regards

I wouldn't worry too much about those stored codes... they could easily relate to faults/incidents/disconnections that happened 10 years ago and were rectified without the ***ociated DTCs being deleted. The important thing now is deleting them all from the ECU (not from your scan tool!) and then seeing which ones come back.

P0098 relates to the intake air temperature sensor (probably having been disconnected along with the MAF during cleaning?)
P1248 = APP sensor issue (often occurs with the ***ociated P2138 on the i-CTDi)
P1384 = glow plug/relay fault

Hi Jon-G

Thanks for the reply.

I agree one o two of those codes must have been hanging around for years!!

Where do you get your fault code list from.

Not sure what you mean by "delete them all from the ECU (not from the scan tool)

Can you explain

I used the Torque app to delete the codes from what I ***ume was the ECU Was this correct

The engine light went out when I reset the fault codes but will no doubt come back on when I go for a drive and the engine starts playing up.

Glowplug and IAT error codes are very common, so came from memory. I kew that APP/TP sensor codes normally come in pairs, so confirmed it by putting 'P1248' into the TA search ('forums' button selected) and found this... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/10469-just-got-p2138-and-p1248-faults/?hl=p1248

I misunderstood your previous post, which I interpreted as meaning that you were having problems deleting the codes from the ECU...

chesjak said:

...Using the save facility on the Torque App, I then reset the codes to see what pops up again when I drive it but I now find that when I "load Fault Codes" on the Torque App it comes back to me saying that ECU does not appear to support mode $06 and I cannot find the Fault code log I saved...

Click to expand...

Hopefully you'll soon pick up a useful code!

Here are the correct translations of those codes in the ESM

P0098 IAT Sensor 2 Circuit High Voltage
P0108 MAP Sensor Circuit High Voltage
P0113 IAT Sensor 1 Circuit High Voltage
P0118 ECT Sensor Cricuit High Voltage
P0193 FRP Sensor Circuit High Voltage
P0403 EGR Valve Circuit Open
P1248 APP Sensor A/B Incorrect Voltage Correlation
P1384 Glow Plug Circuit Malfunction
P2017 IMRC Valve Position Sensor Circuit High Voltage
P2138 APP Sensor A/B Incorrect Voltage Correlation

Depending on how long those codes have been stored, there could be an over-voltage issue ?