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DAB Options

NugentS

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Berkshire
Car
Honda Accord 2.2 EX
Hi,

2012 Honda 2.2 iDTEC EX Saloon with Premium Sound & Sat Nav built in.
I suspect that the crappy FM reception (well less than perfect enough to be annoying) is due to the reduction in broadcast power
So I think it time to look at DAB.

I have looked at some of the other threads here which contain useful information - but I was wondering if there is any new ideas out there.

I am looking for a stealth install, with volume and tuning controlable from the steering wheel
I also use an iPod connected to the radio - so I need to either continue using that OR get better intagration using a new device (Honda's iPod intagration is what I would describe as mediocre)
Need to continue to use SatNav, so direction instructions need to keep coming when using DAB

I am aware that the aerial is also an issue. what type etc. I have my eye on a sharks fin DAB, AM/FM unit - which would replace the existing aerial and mean a hole in the roof but it ought to solve the problems....... [ought]

Anyway looking for ideas - please?
 
On the Tourer the FM antenna is on one side (right-hand rear side-window) and the AM is on the other side. But I have noticed that, even on the Tourer, reception is not as good as it used to be (I've had the car for 11 years). With both antennas being on the rear screen of the Saloon with the demister wires, I can imagine that it's even worse.

If I decided to install DAB, with it being in Band III , I'd look for a separate DAB antenna and DAB radio, all isolated from the existing radio and satnav setup. Regarding integrating it to the existing steering controls, I've no idea how difficult that could be (personally I wouldn't try) .
 
Whereabouts in the UK are you ?

The frequency of the DAB signals is not so far away from the upper FM band and so many fixed/house installations can happily split a VHF aerial to drive a DAB system, I would not start trying to fit a dedicated one until trying to connect to the existing socket.

I would also check the connectors below the windows, on the forum there is another thread detailing an amplifier within the car body that could be defective, or just not powered.

I'm not sure if you have seen what is available on DAB, many of the stations are mono only, which will sound flat compared to a working FM reception system

Lastly DAB+ is the next upgrade to DAB, same frequency but different protocol of transmission (TAS102563). Make sure whatever headend yoou get is compatible with, or upgradeable to the new broadcast technique.
 
I disagree, I'd say keep it separate, especially (but not only) because the antennas in the Accord are junk.

FM band ends at 108 MHz, Band III starts at 174 MHz, that's not close in RF Engineering.
 
freddofrog said:
I disagree, I'd say keep it separate, especially (but not only) because the antennas in the Accord are junk.

FM band ends at 108 MHz, Band III starts at 174 MHz, that's not close in RF Engineering.
I doubt Honda have designed specific window glass with impreganated aerials for the various markets.

Japan fm -75-90 MHz

Europe FM 88-108 MHz

US FM - 88 through with allowance for the NOAA weather emergency channels at around 162 MHz.

But I could be wrong.
 
By the way the combiner am/fm units in BMWs (Fuba) have a cut off point of around 300MHz but they use the same unit for their vehicle access fobs. Whether Honda units are in the same league is another question, based on the threads pointing out poor reception.

I might go measure the aerial lengths in the rear panel glass tomorrow while burning out the wheel sensor.
 
Channel Hopper said:
I doubt Honda have designed specific window glass with impreganated aerials for the various markets.

Japan fm -75-90 MHz

Europe FM 88-108 MHz

US FM - 88 through with allowance for the NOAA weather emergency channels at around 162 MHz.

But I could be wrong.
The antennas are not impregnated into the glass.

US Accord is a different car from Japan/EU Accord

Wavelength of 108 MHz = 2.7 m
Wavelength of 174 MHz = 1.7 m

Whilst a DAB radio might work ok on that FM patch antenna, it will require a splitter which will incur an insertion loss. I'm intrigued as to how the Honda DAB radio gets round this.
 
Channel Hopper said:
By the way the combiner am/fm units in BMWs (Fuba) have a cut off point of around 300MHz but they use the same unit for their vehicle access fobs. Whether Honda units are in the same league is another question, based on the threads pointing out poor reception.

I might go measure the aerial lengths in the rear panel glass tomorrow while burning out the wheel sensor.
In other threads we've already been over the fact that stuff like this is off-the-shelf from external companies. There's no point comparing the kit in a BMW with the kit in the Accord, it's a completely different approach. Not only that, there is no combiner in the Accord, the FM antenna, the AM antenna, and the GPS antenna are 3 separate antennas. The amplifier units on the two patch/mesh antennas are more likely to be impedance matching (to the cable), possibly with band-pass filtering.

Good luck with measuring the patch/mesh antennas, it won't help you with the aperture of the antenna, which relates to its efficiency at design frequencies (and hence it wasn't designed for Band III).

Although the Honda DAB kit may easily integrate into the existing car's cabling, I just cannot see how it will successfully use the existing FM patch/mesh antenna. If I was going to do it on the Accord, I'd want a separate antenna, i just would not contemplate using that existing antenna, even if I was going to couple it direct to the input of the DAB receiver (leaving the FM radio no longer used)
 
Yes, impregnated is the wrong word, I meant bonded for the Accord glass.

I'll pull my last remaining Blaupunkt DAB radio from the shed tomorrow. These were the preferred radio for the Honda PanEuropeans when I was servicing/maintaining them a few years ago and from memory, only one aerial was installed on the bike (with single connector, all the clever stuff was done in the radio itself). They had the 163MHz weather button as well which would provide just hiss unless you were touring Stateside.

I agree that the tuned length of a matched aerial differs based on centre frequency, but for vehicle application a quarter wavelength comparison is the one used. At no time would a complete band loss be the result of fitting either, but the shorter option tuned for DAB would work more favourably at Band II than the other way round.
 
You keep obfuscating by talking about other installations, yet it's the antenna on the UK Honda Accord that is relevant here.

If you look at the patch/mesh antenna, its aperture is optimum for Band II, which you'd expect since it is plugged into a Band II FM receiver. Even then it's well known to give poor reception in many situations, so if a splitter is added, it will be worse.

Even without a splitter, why would anyone try to use a Band II antenna for a Band III receiver ?

As an ****ogy, in the days of 405-line TV, it was common practice to use two antennas, one for Band I (BBC channels) and one for Band III (the ITV channels). Thus the same basic principle applies, which is, don't expect good results by plugging a Band II antenna into a Band III receiver ....get a Band III antenna for DAB.


edit:
. moved to #14
 
My original point was for the o/p to hold off the expense of installing the DAB kit before exhausting improvement of the existing reception. It might even be something behind the dash, since I do not believe it is down to 'a reduction in broadcast power', not in Berkshire anyway.

I don't have experience of the MK VIII but there is a chance the poor radio reception is down to nothing more than a poor aerial connection behind the sat-nav console.

I wish Honda had fitted a 'DX' option on their car entertainment as it worked on all other vehicles when I needed it to.
 
In view of the OP's wish to integrate with the steering controls, going for the Honda kit is the best solution.

I don't think that the antenna setup is any different on the 8th gen. If there is, the only difference might be that on the 7th gen they seem to use a passive device (coil) to match the antenna to the cable, whereas on the 8th gen they seem to use an active device.

In several threads I have also postulated that it's down to bad connections (or breaks in the wire on the screen) but generally the Tourer seems to give better reception than the saloon, thereby implying that patch/mesh on windows is a cheap solution (which it is).

Anyway, moving away from the Accord, I would be interested in pics of what you have ;)
(hope the OP doesn't mind a slight thread hijack now that he's opted for a Honda kit)
 
freddofrog said:
Anyway, moving away from the Accord, I would be interested in pics of what you have ;)
(hope the OP doesn't mind a slight thread hijack now that he's opted for a Honda kit)
Do you mean the Blaupunkt ?

If so I'll grab the box , take pictures and open a new thread tomorrow. I think it's the DAB52 though.
 
Yep that's what I mean, plus its antenna (whip antenna I presume), start a new thread, let's see what else is available other than Honda kit.

I hate the cheap mesh antennas on the 7th gen, and, as well as using active devices on the 8th gen, the active devices may be proper RF amplifiers (in a feeble attempt to get a bit more signal).

But even with those RF amps, I doubt if the Honda DAB kit attempts to use those feeders. We'll see what's in the Honda kit when the OP gets it.
 
Hi Guys.

Having installed this kit from Honda into my 8th Gen Accord Tourer and produced a install guide and review of said item (Honda Karma). With the enclosed glass mounted aerial the reception is OK in strong signal areas, like others have said keep the aerials all separate as no way will they match the input to the DAB box. I will be looking to use a dedicated DAB aerial but mag mount like this one:- http://www.dabonwheels.co.uk/Kinetic_MagnetwiG_DMA-1006_DAB_car_aerial.html

As for FM reception I have never had any problems with my Accord and I've driven over most of the country.

John
 
I mentioned in another thread the only reception issue experienced in the Tourer is when the rear window heater is on, but I haven't driven more than 70 miles from London, so really nowhere that could be considered out in the sticks. The boot area is also full of metal (as is the rear seat space most of the time) which mainly reaches the lower parts of the windows.
 
smokingman said:
Hi Guys.

Having installed this kit from Honda into my 8th Gen Accord Tourer and produced a install guide and review of said item (Honda Karma). With the enclosed glass mounted aerial the reception is OK in strong signal areas, like others have said keep the aerials all separate as no way will they match the input to the DAB box. I will be looking to use a dedicated DAB aerial but mag mount like this one:- http://www.dabonwheels.co.uk/Kinetic_MagnetwiG_DMA-1006_DAB_car_aerial.html

As for FM reception I have never had any problems with my Accord and I've driven over most of the country.

John
I was fairly sure that, even with those (probably) RF amplifiers on the 8th gen, it wouldn't be any good for DAB.

Channel Hopper said:
I mentioned in another thread the only reception issue experienced in the Tourer is when the rear window heater is on, but I haven't driven more than 70 miles from London, so really nowhere that could be considered out in the sticks. The boot area is also full of metal (as is the rear seat space most of the time) which mainly reaches the lower parts of the windows.
Have you also been imitating the Italian Job :lol:

Generally speaking, if you compare the FM radio in the Accord with a good quality portable FM radio, when stationary the latter is always better (but when on the move, they're often about the same). I don't listen to the radio in the Accord that much, but like the OP, I have noticed that some stations seem to fade a lot more than they used to do. I don't know if the reason is due to transmit powers being turned down or not, but I'm fairly sure that nothing has changed in the antennas or feeders in my car, and FM reception was only ever "acceptable" when I got the car 11 years ago.
 
Well this convo got a lot more technical than I expected.
My plan is as follows:
1. Install Honda DAB Kit
2. Install FM-AM/DAB Aerial on top of room - which means drilling a hole (twitch twitch) in the roof and connect to things

Looking at dabonwheels a good option seems to be the kinetic DRA-6006 which is a combined DAB/FM-AM Aerial that according to the wiring diagram has 2 FAKRA connectros and a 6.3 DIN 46340 what I ***ume is a power connector
SO I would need to (I am making ***umptions here):
1. need to attatch the DAB connector to the DAB Kit - I will see what sort of connector I need for this on Friday
2. need to attatch the FM connector to the Honda Radio - anyone know what type this is?
3. need to attatch the power connector to probably the DAB Kit or a live power somewhere

Anyone have any idea what sort of adapters I will need to order (if any)

I shall wander into the dealer where I got the car and interrogate them tomorrow.
 
NugentS said:
2. need to attatch the FM connector to the Honda Radio - anyone know what type this is?
Right, I've had a look at the circuit diagram for the 8th gen audio and going by that, it looks as if the 8th gen FM Premium radio might have diversity inputs. Without seeing the patch/mesh in close-up on the screen of an 8th gen with Premium radio, I couldn't say for sure if it is a diversity system. But if it is, best thing is to leave the FM radio as it is ;)
 
From my quick search I believe the unit is made by Matsus****a. When I get a few minutes I'll have a good look around for the difinitive answer.


Edit, that is M.A.T. S. U. S. H. I. T. A. for those with the same forum censorship issue
 
Antenna input connections on the back of the 8th gen Premium system (from the patch/mesh array)

CU3_audio_connector.jpg



I think it is a diversity system
 
freddofrog said:
Antenna input connections on the back of the 8th gen Premium system (from the patch/mesh array)

CU3_audio_connector.jpg



I think it is a diversity system
Diversity?
 
26 posts for dab issue that's a bit excessive

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk
 
NugentS said:
Diversity?
Without looking at the antennas on the 8th gen I can't be certain but, to cut a long story short, going by the circuit diagrams for the 8th gen Premium system there should be two FM antennas. If the receiver has the technology, with two antenna inputs it can use them to reduce fading caused by multipath interference. The two antennas will either give "space diversity" or "pattern diversity". If this is the case, then the 8th gen Premium system is far better than on the 7th gen, so I'd leave it as it is.

Maybe take good quality and clear pictures of the patch/mesh on the rear screen of the saloon ?

honda_saj said:
26 posts for dab issue that's a bit excessive
yep I agree ...but you're now adding to it :lol:
 
NugentS said:
Diversity?
In laymans terms another name for combining separate aerials to allow fewer cables between roof/window and the receiver/radio. Some are for combining same or similar frequencies where there is limited space to fit a full size reflector or line array, but in the main they are supposed to reduce the effects of intermittent path loss.

In the satellite/TV industry you would have have TV, radio and satellite signals from the roof combined inside a loft box or a distribution unit (I use Delta and/or Spaun but there are many others) and then the signals are separated behind the TV using a wall plate that can diplex / triplex them out to the correct devices via their dedicated connector. Whilst it is difficult to provide phased arrays for the higher frequency equipment (GHz from satellite dishes) quite often I have installed a phased array for UHF / TV at the front end as opposed to one aerial, the diversity kit being the combiner and cable before it goes into the distribution box. All cables before the combiner (two or four in the case of a quad) have to be at the exact same length though, to avoid out of phase signals cancelling out the overall signal
The main reason is cost saving of labour when installing domestic systems sice it is cheaper to install a smaller mount, and two / four antennas than a large mast and a single longer antenna with guy lines and additional lightning protection, and for feeding the longer distances in an apartment block, the Spaun boxes have adjustable and slope equalised amplification meaning everybody gets about the same signal level no matter where they are.

I'm not sure of any advantage with a run as small as front to back in a saloon car though, moreso as it is offset by the diversity equipment costs where a larger antenna would suffice.
 
Channel Hopper said:
In laymans terms another name for combining separate aerials to allow fewer cables between roof/window and the receiver/radio. Some are for combining same or similar frequencies where there is limited space to fit a full size reflector or line array, but in the main they are supposed to reduce the effects of intermittent path loss.

In the satellite/TV industry you would have have TV, radio and satellite signals from the roof combined inside a loft box or a distribution unit (I use Delta and/or Spaun but there are many others) and then the signals are separated behind the TV using a wall plate that can diplex / triplex them out to the correct devices via their dedicated connector. Whilst it is difficult to provide phased arrays for the higher frequency equipment (GHz from satellite dishes) quite often I have installed a phased array for UHF / TV at the front end as opposed to one aerial, the diversity kit being the combiner and cable before it goes into the distribution box. All cables before the combiner (two or four in the case of a quad) have to be at the exact same length though, to avoid out of phase signals cancelling out the overall signal
The main reason is cost saving of labour when installing domestic systems sice it is cheaper to install a smaller mount, and two / four antennas than a large mast and a single longer antenna with guy lines and additional lightning protection, and for feeding the longer distances in an apartment block, the Spaun boxes have adjustable and slope equalised amplification meaning everybody gets about the same signal level no matter where they are.

I'm not sure of any advantage with a run as small as front to back in a saloon car though, moreso as it is offset by the diversity equipment costs where a larger antenna would suffice.


No that's definitely not what diversity is.

Where a receiver has Diversity capabilities, it gives extra gain, and can give an improvement against fading.
 
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