Jump to content


Photo

Injectors upgrade for E85 on K24


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 IloveJapan

IloveJapan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  • Name:Fabian
  • Car :Accord CM2
  • LocationParis, France

Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:58 PM

I tried once a mix of 33% E85 in my tank, but I had the OBD warning light coming on (the mixture was too lean) ... The car was working normally, but it was the startup that caused this error to set. The fault disappeared once back down to around 25% of E85.
 
Now I read on the forum of the people saying to drive with 50% of E85 with their K24 without any error, with with a smoother engine below 3000rpm. I suppose it is "stock" or close engine, for my side I have the original ECU reflashed and a few additions to the inlet level, so I tell myself that the difference surely comes from there.
 
The investment to switch to a full remap is consistent (ECU Hondata + reprog) with a few inconveniences (loss of the speed regulator) which is a pity for a car destined to be drived for long distance during WE and holidays.
 
So I'm wondering if fitting bigger injectors, 10 to 20% more to stay within an acceptable margin to be able to ride both with SP98 or E85 (without remap) would not be a "good" idea to be able to drive to the E85 .
 
The original injectors of the K24 are 310cc (same ref as the K20, 16450-RBB-003), and in original Honda injector ref I can find those of K23A1 of the RDX (16450-RWC-A01, https://h-tune.co.uk...10cc-injectors/) which are 410cc , 30% increase in volume ...
 
I know it is not good to play wizard apprentices, but I would like your opinion on the issue....
 
 


#2 freddofrog

freddofrog

    won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 7,326 posts
  • Name:.Freddo
  • Car :TBD
  • LocationOff abroad

Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:15 PM

More likely to be associated with the knock sensor and the amount of advance/retard that the remap allowed in certain situations ?



#3 Jon_G

Jon_G

    No Longer Active

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,124 posts
  • Name:Jon
  • Car :2005 Tourer i-CTDi
  • LocationNr Ludlow, Shropshire

Posted 27 June 2017 - 03:45 PM

Surely a 33% mix of E85 (presumably with ethanol-free unleaded) would be the same as E5... Same as most of us with petrol cars use?

I think your lean running may be due to other problems.
  • freddofrog likes this

#4 ukcl9

ukcl9

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Name:.
  • Car :CL7 Euro R,cl9 lpg
  • Locationuk

Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:39 PM

The fuel system is not designed for e85
The reflash runs on ron 95
By fitting rsp manifold you will have lost low end torque
The reflash is not designed for e85 or bigger injectors

Edited by ukcl9, 28 June 2017 - 03:42 PM.

k20/k24 reflasher.Test ECU available.Click on the reflash thread
http://typeaccord.co...remap-test-ecu/

#5 Goodluckmonkey

Goodluckmonkey

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,616 posts
  • Name:Matt
  • Car :CN2
  • LocationKent

Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:42 PM

Stoichiometric ratio's vastly different with ethanol.
Why old school speedway bikes had such enormous jets in them.
Gen 7 Pre-Facelift CDTI Tourer
Premier Tuning stage 2 map / EGR Delete
'09 N22A2 Civic motor / Accord 5 speed / Stock LUK Clutch and DMF
8.5x19 ET42 / 9.5x19 ET45 BBS LM fakes (225/35 and 245/35 Toyo's)
-35mm Apex Springs
Avg Consumption currently @ 44.5mpg

#6 Jon_G

Jon_G

    No Longer Active

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,124 posts
  • Name:Jon
  • Car :2005 Tourer i-CTDi
  • LocationNr Ludlow, Shropshire

Posted 28 June 2017 - 06:59 PM

I've just realised that the OP is referring to E85, I had wrongly assumed he meant E15!

Is there really such a thing as E85?

#7 Goodluckmonkey

Goodluckmonkey

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,616 posts
  • Name:Matt
  • Car :CN2
  • LocationKent

Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:32 PM

Yeah, just we don't get it over here.

Wonderful stuff in boosted applications if you run huge injectors and fuel pumps and want to make big power.

Our regular unleaded is somethig like E10 AFAIK.

Edited by Goodluckmonkey, 28 June 2017 - 07:33 PM.

Gen 7 Pre-Facelift CDTI Tourer
Premier Tuning stage 2 map / EGR Delete
'09 N22A2 Civic motor / Accord 5 speed / Stock LUK Clutch and DMF
8.5x19 ET42 / 9.5x19 ET45 BBS LM fakes (225/35 and 245/35 Toyo's)
-35mm Apex Springs
Avg Consumption currently @ 44.5mpg

#8 Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 809 posts
  • Name:Stephen
  • Car :Accord 7 Estate 2005
  • LocationKT8 Postcode

Posted 28 June 2017 - 10:03 PM

I've worked with many Hondas over here with the new ethanol additives and a lot don't like it.

The fuel injection sensors should cope with the changes in fuel air ratios as well as detonation/timing, however the issues I've found are to do with changes of fuel temperature in the tank which introduces water through condensation, which will alter the mix to screw up the ignition.

There have also been reports that the fuel pipes and even the anti corrosion properties of the paint inside the tank break down and foul up the injectors, though this does appear to be limited to small capacity bikes manufactured under licence in near Asia.

Lastly the fuel pumps can be affected by the additional water in the fuel as well as filters gumming up owing to organic material breeding in the ideal heat/humidity conditions, not unlike the mould that can manifest in home brew / svo diesel vehicles, more so if left standing idle for a week or more at the airport.

Edited by Channel Hopper, 28 June 2017 - 10:05 PM.

  • freddofrog likes this

#9 IloveJapan

IloveJapan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  • Name:Fabian
  • Car :Accord CM2
  • LocationParis, France

Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:58 AM

I need to clarify some details...
 
In France we have 4 types of petrol:
 
1) RON98 - Best petrol (power, consumption), but trend to dissapear :( 
2) RON95 - used by a majority of petrol cars.
3) RON95-E10 - Same as previous, but mixed with 10% of Ethanol, can be used by all cars  > 2000. Less taxes, but more consumption, so it's useless in fact!
4) E85 - 85% of Ethanol during summer, 70% during winter. This petrol is available in France since 2008. E85 is the cheapest, half price of regular petrol!
 
A lot of french drivers tried to used it in their car, with a mix of regular RON95 petrol or with some minor modification on the engine (like resistor for fake water temp, more fuel pressure or external boxes that send fakes signals to ECU to rise injection timings)
Some cars are easiest to modify or are able to have a huge ECU compensation and can be used with 100% E85 without any problem, even if the engine was not engineered to used this kind of petrol (like 90's french cars).
 
On Honda Accord Passion (french forum), some members uses a mix of 50% E85 with their K24, without any modification. So I thinks that original map and adaptation strategy regarding o² sensor value is able to compensate the petrol injection timing up to 15% (because you need to add 30% of Ethanol to have the same combustion as RON95).
A member using a mix of 50% E85 last 5 years and 100k kilometers without any problem (just some cold starts are longer in winter)
 
So regarding using E85 in my car, I thinking that using RDX injectors (410cc) instead of original K24 (310cc), will add 32% of petrol for the same injection time, so I'll be exactly in the same point of the injection map with RDX injectors & E85 than RON98 with OEM injectors, right ? And probably this modification wil be safest that mixing 50% of E85 or just adding a resistor on water temp sensor to increase injection timing.


#10 Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 809 posts
  • Name:Stephen
  • Car :Accord 7 Estate 2005
  • LocationKT8 Postcode

Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:50 AM

This is the recommendation from the other side of the water (pond, not the nose) Post 21.

 

http://www.driveacco...yl-honda-2.html


Edited by Channel Hopper, 29 June 2017 - 10:51 AM.


#11 Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 809 posts
  • Name:Stephen
  • Car :Accord 7 Estate 2005
  • LocationKT8 Postcode

Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:54 AM

And from the horse's mouth.

 

http://engines.honda...recommendations


  • freddofrog likes this

#12 freddofrog

freddofrog

    won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 7,326 posts
  • Name:.Freddo
  • Car :TBD
  • LocationOff abroad

Posted 29 June 2017 - 12:09 PM

There's a Spanish chap who's finding that Honda engines struggle on standard petrol.

 

846b374ee434ab45ff0bc49b2bbf526f.jpg

 

 

I wouldn't like to think what would happen to his Honda engines if they put ethanol in the tank.