Fairfuel

Firstly I hope I am breaking no rules , but I subscribe to the fairfuel protest , which is fronted by Quentin Wilson , as a diesel owner , I believe we are being made scapegoats , we pay through the nose for our fuel , that includes petrol vehicles . What I want to know as we pay so much for Derv , why isn't the additive that reduces the harmful content , added to British pumps , they have this additive in parts of Europe and America , another thing what annoys me , is the truth , why aren't we being told that the pollution from diesels cars is 11% of the polluted output , the additive reduces this by 60% . There is many more devices that pollute our atmosphere , do you know diesel trains output of pollutants is massive , this is kept quiet , do you think we the diesel owners should stick together and support fair fuel , I remember the adverts for the icdti engine and it was made to appear environmentally friendly , Gordon Brown pushed us to buy diesel vehicles , somebody should take responsibility for giving us misinformation .

Thanks for reading this .

Definitely not breaking any rules.

Regarding "fairfuel", both petrol and diesel have the same tax at 58p per litre. The reason why the pump price of diesel is higher than petrol is because the cost of diesel is higher before the tax is added on. Although the prices may have changed since 2011, the picture below is basically unchanged because the fuel duty is the same.





I'm not sure what additive you're talking about, you might be confusing bio-diesel with Adblue.

As far as I am aware, the only way that diesels can get through the latest Euro 6 emission standard is by using Adblue. This is added from a tank into the exhaust stream to reduce most of the NOx back to Nitrogen and water.




The 7th and 8th gen Accord diesels do not have an Adblue system so, based on current trends, they are likely to be banned from cities in the future.

The problem with the diesel engine is that it is a lean-burn engine (oxygen rich), and if you burn anything carbon based in too much oxygen (e.g. a bonfire) then you get NOx produced. NOx has always been the most harmful product from combustion, and it seems that the VW scandal served to highlight to the public something that was already known to environmentalists, which is that the diesel engine in too many cars and vans in urban environments produces too much NOx in the streets where people are walking (and the buildings where they live or work).

The reason why diesel-engined cars and vans were being "promoted" as green was because they are more efficient than petrol engines (mainly because of higher compression ratio and lower pumping losses). Thus their CO2 output per mile is less, the penalty for which is particulates and NOx .

Diesel cars have only really been popular in Europe because of the better mpg, and because of the reduced CO2. It wasn't any UK government that was pushing the diesel, it was a cultural phenomenon based on those facts, and the emissions standards were too slow in forcing the diesel engines to use equipment to reduce the particulates and the NOx.

If the Euro 6 standards had been introduced say 10 years ago, then I doubt whether Honda would have bothered, they only really introduced diesel engines to keep market share where other marques had diesels, indeed most of the equipment on diesel cars is Bosch.

So there wasn't misinformation as such, it's just the slow process by which emission standards came into place in the EU, such that there was a period that allowed diesel engines on cars and vans that should never have been allowed in the first place.

On the bonus side, you may have a diesel scrappage to look forward to

NOx doesn't come from burning carbon-based fuels in oxygen... It comes from nitrogen and oxygen in the air being able to combine under certain (burning or explosive) conditions.

Diesel is a pretty unpleasant fuel, but petrol isn't much better. Until we have a national fleet of electric vehicles charging themselves from 'clean' (non-fossil fuel) power stations we are just tinkering with the margins of the problem.

But money rules... I can't see a UK government wanting to lose the revenue from the sales of petrol/diesel, neither can I imagine a UK government funding the full replacement of our fossil fuel based electricity generation.

Well I did say "lean-burn" and "oxygen rich" and "too much oxygen", and, I was trying to keep it simple. Clearly Nitrogen has to be present, but since internal combustion engines and bonfires burn in air, it goes without saying that Nitrogen is present.

When carbon burns in too much oxygen (i.e. not at stoichiometry) then the burning temperature increases, and as the burning temperature increases, it creates conditions for combinations of nitrogen and oxygen. So put simply, an IC engine and a bonfire can both burn oxygen rich, which will cause NOx. The reason why petrol engines naturally produce far less NOx is because they tend to operate most of the times at stoichiometry or sometimes fuel-rich, both of which keep the combustion temperature down.

The Euro 6 standards are interesting in that both petrol and diesel engines are almost identical --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars . I would postulate that had Euro 6 been introduced 10 years ago, then either 1. diesel cars would have died out because the manufacturers wouldn't have found the solutions in time, or 2. there would be more diesel cars now without ever having had the diesel debacle. The reason why standards are well behind the curve of science is due to lobbying by the industry that the standards are trying to control. Auto manufacturers are one example, cigarette manufacturers are the best example.

It's interesting that France wants to ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2040 --> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40518293
I'm sure that they have fuel duty too, so what will France do instead ?


edit:
interesting read from a website called "treehugger" in which it seems that Li-on batteries aren't too environmentally bad after all --> https://www.treehugger.com/cars/life-cycle-****ysis-of-electric-car-shows-battery-has-only-minor-impact.html

All we need now is fusion power stations, and we can all sit back and be happy about the climate and the air we breath, and wars will vanish as well (mostly they're about oil, directly or indirectly).

I'm surprised Mr Wilson isn't pushing for a move away from ANPR/number plate recognition on how the date of manufacture is a guide to emissions, or, in no particular order :
the quality of fuel sold/mis-sold at the pumps,
the periodic replacement of disposable items in vehicle fuel systems,
the quality of the engine management system itself,
the use of air-conditioning when it isn't required,
the MOT is little more than a wake up call to confirm that the vehicle owner is mechanically inept at best, or a complete cabbage,
the idling of hackney cabs at ranks/elsewhere since the driver cannot be bothered to check the charging system, or understands what clean battery terminals are.
the single occupancy of a four / six seat vehicle,
the school / other non-essential short runs,
the idea of shoes and an umbrella as a transportation device,
the dog understanding that his walk is never a car drive away.

^ I think most of that list has been resolved already in countries and US states that are far more environmentally ahead than the UK

As an ****ogy, 15 years ago I worked in Germany and then Holland, and free bags at shops were banned, I'm gobsmacked at how long it took for this to happen here.

freddofrog said:

^ I think most of that list has been resolved already in countries and US states that are far more environmentally ahead than the UK

As an ****ogy, 15 years ago I worked in Germany and then Holland, and free bags at shops were banned, I'm gobsmacked at how long it took for this to happen here.

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The first one is the money spinner based on a complete lie, and should be at the forefrnt of any proper protest.

I know about the fluid added to diesel cars with a diesel particulate filter , if you check it up you will find definitely in America a special additive is added at source which is the refinery , so I want to know if these people are trying to be green why aren't we adding this additive .

freddofrog said:

Definitely not breaking any rules.

Regarding "fairfuel", both petrol and diesel have the same tax at 58p per litre. The reason why the pump price of diesel is higher than petrol is because the cost of diesel is higher before the tax is added on. Although the prices may have changed since 2011, the picture below is basically unchanged because the fuel duty is the same.

I'm not sure what additive you're talking about, you might be confusing bio-diesel with Adblue.

As far as I am aware, the only way that diesels can get through the latest Euro 6 emission standard is by using Adblue. This is added from a tank into the exhaust stream to reduce most of the NOx back to Nitrogen and water.

The 7th and 8th gen Accord diesels do not have an Adblue system so, based on current trends, they are likely to be banned from cities in the future.

The problem with the diesel engine is that it is a lean-burn engine (oxygen rich), and if you burn anything carbon based in too much oxygen (e.g. a bonfire) then you get NOx produced. NOx has always been the most harmful product from combustion, and it seems that the VW scandal served to highlight to the public something that was already known to environmentalists, which is that the diesel engine in too many cars and vans in urban environments produces too much NOx in the streets where people are walking (and the buildings where they live or work).

The reason why diesel-engined cars and vans were being "promoted" as green was because they are more efficient than petrol engines (mainly because of higher compression ratio and lower pumping losses). Thus their CO2 output per mile is less, the penalty for which is particulates and NOx .

Diesel cars have only really been popular in Europe because of the better mpg, and because of the reduced CO2. It wasn't any UK government that was pushing the diesel, it was a cultural phenomenon based on those facts, and the emissions standards were too slow in forcing the diesel engines to use equipment to reduce the particulates and the NOx.

If the Euro 6 standards had been introduced say 10 years ago, then I doubt whether Honda would have bothered, they only really introduced diesel engines to keep market share where other marques had diesels, indeed most of the equipment on diesel cars is Bosch.

So there wasn't misinformation as such, it's just the slow process by which emission standards came into place in the EU, such that there was a period that allowed diesel engines on cars and vans that should never have been allowed in the first place.

On the bonus side, you may have a diesel scrappage to look forward to

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just buy a petrol and all is well, diesels are brutal..
the smell, noise, brutality of then... give me a petrol any day of the week - dont care how much more i put in at the pumps.

Channel Hopper said:

The first one is the money spinner based on a complete lie, and should be at the forefrnt of any proper protest.

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well he is on the head with the 2nd point, I remember being in Germany a decade ago and the bottle banks in supermarkets where you get cash back, alien to England,

hell even Ireland charged for plasic bags yonks ago.

England is meant to be a developed nation but looking at the ancient and over priced trains, third world road network and things like discussed above i am not sure its all that good, - lets not even mention wages which have been stagnant for years and most people are no better off financialy than they were 15 years ago or so with inflation taken into account.

toffee_pie said:

well he is on the head with the 2nd point, I remember being in Germany a decade ago and the bottle banks in supermarkets where you get cash back, alien to England,

hell even Ireland charged for plasic bags yonks ago.

England is meant to be a developed nation but looking at the ancient and over priced trains, third world road network and things like discussed above i am not sure its all that good, - lets not even mention wages which have been stagnant for years and most people are no better off financialy than they were 15 years ago or so with inflation taken into account.

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yep it's a mess, taxation needs to be looked at, no idea why there can't be an "****ogue" sliding scale on all taxation, this is the 21st century after all.

longshanks1 said:

I know about the fluid added to diesel cars with a diesel particulate filter , if you check it up you will find definitely in America a special additive is added at source which is the refinery , so I want to know if these people are trying to be green why aren't we adding this additive .

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I think you may be talking about either
1. cetane improvers
2. detergents
3. biodiesel

any idea which ?
got any links ?

longshanks1 said:

I know about the fluid added to diesel cars with a diesel particulate filter , if you check it up you will find definitely in America a special additive is added at source which is the refinery , so I want to know if these people are trying to be green why aren't we adding this additive .

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Some European diesels (Mercedes) do use the Adblue system (chiefly to control NOx emissions rather than diesel particulates) but VW/Audi decided not to use it and instead decided to cheat. Successive versions of Euro emission standards are pretty much guaranteed to require new diesels to use Adblue. But will a post-Brexit UK care?

We're already operating under Euro 6 now so all new car sales have to comply to Euro 6. I can't see any government getting rid of Euro 6. Also the hoo-ha about diesel emissions in some UK cities isn't related to anything in Europe.

freddofrog said:

We're already operating under Euro 6 now so all new car sales have to comply to Euro 6. I can't see any government getting rid of Euro 6...

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No, but adoption of Euro 7 may become optional?

freddofrog said:

...Also the hoo-ha about diesel emissions in some UK cities isn't related to anything in Europe.

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The EU is currently the primary driving force behind efforts to clean up the quality of air in UK cities...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_quality_and_EU_legislation

Certainly the Euro 6 standard was a major step forward in creating potential improvements. Obviously we should thank the EU for that...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/04/eu-car-pollution-laws-have-improved-uks-air-quality-say-carmakers

Obviously the UK could independently keep raising the bar for improvements in our city air quality after Brexit, but I fear that market forces and our weakening financial situation will cause this to become indefinitely shelved. We're not even meeting the current targets for improvements, largely because our government isn't doing anything positive to remove aging, dirty diesel cars (such as mine) from our roads... drivers were encouraged by tax incentives to buy diesels, so where's the encouragement to get rid of them (£3k scrappage scheme, anyone?)... instead I'm expecting increasingly punitive negative incentives to abandon our dirty diesels.

Jon_G said:

Obviously the UK could independently keep raising the bar for improvements in our city air quality after Brexit, but I fear that market forces and our weakening financial situation will cause this to become indefinitely shelved. We're not even meeting the current targets for improvements, largely because our government isn't doing anything positive to remove aging, dirty diesel cars (such as mine) from our roads... drivers were encouraged by tax incentives to buy diesels, so where's the encouragement to get rid of them (£3k scrappage scheme, anyone?)... instead I'm expecting increasingly punitive negative incentives to abandon our dirty diesels.

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Yours is likely to be infinitely more 'friendly' than some allowed in the capital.

For a start it's not a VW.......

Remember this headline ? (now missing from the internet)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063909/5-000-black-cabs-recalled-cause-mystery-blazes-traced-greener-exhausts.html




Meanwhile our elected mayor continues to rearrange the deck-chairs, was his dad a bus driver by chance ?

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2012/06/18/london-mayor-urged-to-ban-over-10-year-old-taxis/

Private motorists should not be the only ones to bear the brunt of any crack-down on vehicle emissions, obviously busses and taxis need to be cleaned up. But who should fund this?

I'd also like to see fewer HGVs on our roads and freight transport moved to our increasingly electrified railways. But that's not fair on HGV operators.

I can't imagine how we will ever reduce our fossil fuel emissions, it'll simply cost too much (either directly on the vehicle owners or indirectly on us taxpayers)... any political party who promised to do this would be rejected by the voting public. I guess most of us agree with the policies of the Green Party, but not many actually vote for them!

Jon_G said:

Private motorists should not be the only ones to bear the brunt of any crack-down on vehicle emissions, obviously busses and taxis need to be cleaned up. But who should fund this?

I'd also like to see fewer HGVs on our roads and freight transport moved to our increasingly electrified railways. But that's not fair on HGV operators.

I can't imagine how we will ever reduce our fossil fuel emissions, it'll simply cost too much (either directly on the vehicle owners or indirectly on us taxpayers)... any political party who promised to do this would be rejected by the voting public. I guess most of us agree with the policies of the Green Party, but not many actually vote for them!

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I'm not sure it is about reducing fossil fuel emissions, but shifting the immediate need of using primary sources, until such a time as fracking makes an impact and the reserves elsewhere are identified and categorised.

What is a known is that very few are likely to clear the planet's gravity pull and start anew if the doomsayers are correct.

Jon_G said:

No, but adoption of Euro 7 may become optional?

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go on then hellion, what are the Euro7 standards and when are they going to be introduced ?

Jon_G said:

The EU is currently the primary driving force behind efforts to clean up the quality of air in UK cities...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_quality_and_EU_legislation

Certainly the Euro 6 standard was a major step forward in creating potential improvements. Obviously we should thank the EU for that...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/04/eu-car-pollution-laws-have-improved-uks-air-quality-say-carmakers

Click to expand...

a veritable example of an Argumentum ad consequentiam

Jon_G said:

Obviously the UK could independently keep raising the bar for improvements in our city air quality after Brexit, but I fear that market forces and our weakening financial situation will cause this to become indefinitely shelved. We're not even meeting the current targets for improvements, largely because our government isn't doing anything positive to remove aging, dirty diesel cars (such as mine) from our roads... drivers were encouraged by tax incentives to buy diesels, so where's the encouragement to get rid of them (£3k scrappage scheme, anyone?)... instead I'm expecting increasingly punitive negative incentives to abandon our dirty diesels.

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multiple cases of circulus in probando in there Jon

Jon_G said:

Private motorists should not be the only ones to bear the brunt of any crack-down on vehicle emissions, obviously busses and taxis need to be cleaned up. But who should fund this?

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Have you read the Euro 6 standards ?

Imagine how much cleaner the environment would be with the three simple steps of banning VW/Audis, Daimlers, and Porsches from the roads

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40740886

EU and German anti-trust regulators are looking at allegations that BMW, Daimler and VW, including its subsidiaries Audi and Porsche, collaborated for decades on many aspects of development and production, disadvantaging customers and suppliers.

What about banning aircraft from our skies?

It may be some time before all aircraft cease using fossil fuels.

Jon_G said:

What about banning aircraft from our skies?

It may be some time before all aircraft cease using fossil fuels.

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If you look at the Clean Air legislation, it is looking to target hot spots', small areas where the concentration of the 'killer' NOx is highest, using specific terms like 'roadside' and 'congestion' to drive home this is a tyred vehicle calamity only.

Of course a drop in fuel use everywhere would help, and it all starts at home with driving (sic) home the idea that less fuel use is better. Multiple passenger use, never fill the tank to the brim, carrying less junk around (guilty as charged), walking/cycling if possible, roof luggage and aircon only if essential, all would add up to massive emmission savings, But so would ensuring local shops are local, school runs are not the norm, commuting to work is not into the city, alternatives available to travel to a desk / phone employment.

There is an undertone of cynicism in the onus being firmly on the car owner now the deadline arrives Monday, the infrastructure that is in place clearly shows that the great unwashed have been played.

From another Honda site, a thread, albeit archaic on the efficiency of an extremely lean burn design from Mr Yunick.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/smokey-yunick-secret-his-adiabatic-engine-2602842/

Whilst I wouldn't consider the arrangement viable for the average car owner, owing to the nitrogen biproducts (and the risk of having the whole fuel system forward of the fuel pump effectively superheated), modern materials and strict engine management would give the design some legs in industrial and commercial application, where the exhaust could be tuned to remove / convert the nasties to something beneficial during running.

A potentially worrying ruling from a German court. No doubt Mayor Khan is rubbing his hands.

Germany has already been warned by the European Commission about its bad air quality. On Friday, a court in Stuttgart, the home of Mercedes-Benz and Porsche, found that a ban on older diesel vehicles would be the most effective way of reducing the pollution and protecting public health.
Such restrictions could be a massive blow to those using the cars, which make up around one-third of the total on German roads.
The Stuttgart ruling also piles pressure on politicians to abandon their support for a voluntary approach by the car industry.



http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/918833/is-diesel-summit-the-last-chance-for-germanys-favorite-engine

seems reasonable, as diesel cars that comply with Euro 6 are on a par with petrol cars

I read into it that the restrictions will be from both ends, and would expect many countries nearby to use stealth taxation to mimic.

How many can remember when diesel was cheaper than petrol , when I started my apprenticeship in 1974 I worked for a firm called Leeds Ignition , and we worked on everything , I cant remember the amount of times the workshop was full of diesel fumes , you couldn't see , but your eyes streamed like hell , now its extractors , I have breathing problems but I put it down to smoking for thirty years , I wonder , anyway the point I was trying to make is the people complaining is the do gooders , if roads were free flowing , no speed bumps they don't work , and first class repairs done to the roads so they are not dug up by the utility companies a week later , communication is the word.

The chemical they had at source is a liquid combustion catalyst additive , they dont tell you its composition .

right, I put my brain into "USA mode" and started to google "USA words and phrases" and I think I've found what you're on about.

It's called "Top Tier detergent gasoline" --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

There are 50 brands in the USA that are licensed (USA for licenced) to be "Top Tier" --> http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/

Murphy (not a Top Tier) have a selection at Walmart pumps where you can add Additech in with the delivery --> https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2006/08/14/346979/103706/en/Additech-s-Tune-Up-at-the-Pump-Improves-Vehicle-Performance-and-Fuel-Efficiency.html

OK, that's gasoline (USA for petrol) so what about diesel in the USA ?

Well I found this --> https://www.hydrocarbonengineering.com/clean-fuels/14072017/afton-chemical-receives-top-tier-diesel-approval/

and then my brain went back to British mode :lol:

I thought Longshanks was suggesting the continuous but separate bottle additive, known as Adblue, which is a concentrate uf urea and I think salt in suspension.

For stationary, one shot cleaners, Redex has been available since the 60's, coming as of late in diesel and petrol versions