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Brake pedal poor (upgrade & dot 5.1)

burbleboy

burbleboy

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Location
Scotland
Car
Accord 2.2 2007
Hi all, looking for some advice.

I have recently fitted Black Diamond 12 groove discs and Green Stuff pads all round. Honda replaced fluid with Millers Motorsport 5.1 (i supplied/they bled/fitted).

When you brake hard, the pedal is softish but when you pump it once and re-apply, the pedal feels harder. This is before and after brakes done. Last night when roads were clear at 5am...i braked hard from high speed and brakes were ok then very very poor and little pedal left after. I thought modded fluid etc would help matters :(

Any ideas? Master cylinder? Just crap servo etc?

Also, any cheap mods other than ATR brake conversion?

Thanks in advance :)
 
There is a procedure to test brake system will look up for in case I forget nudge me via pm

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Thanks for the link!

I went through x2 sets of front Mtec discs on my old civic under warranty. They are crap discs IMO.

I went with Black Diamond as they were great on my civic MB6...married with Green Stuff pads too. No issues.

Is it worth re-bleeding my brakes and fitting braided lines or simply run different cheaper front pads? I cant see the discs being the issue as there design is to reduce heat etc.

That thread points to the pads being the issue?
 
freddofrog said:
I didn't read the thread myself so I don't know ;)
Click to expand...
Basically, red stuff pads fell apart!

I will take pads out and check them also. Heard also that the Honda/normal brake pressure bleeder sometimes doesn't get all the air out. And that there might still be air in the ABS unit. Remedy? Activate ABS a few times to pop any air out ABS unit apparently :)
 
Burbleboy said:
Basically, red stuff pads fell apart!

I will take pads out and check them also. Heard also that the Honda/normal brake pressure bleeder sometimes doesn't get all the air out. And that there might still be air in the ABS unit. Remedy? Activate ABS a few times to pop any air out ABS unit apparently :)
Click to expand...
I tryed to bleed with HDS activacting each brake per time, with pressure from top to bottom and vacum on the nipple, injecting oil from bottom to top... I tryed everey technique man have ever invented with no results.
The point is taht all 4 brakes are working perfectly but the pedal feel is like pressing s**t.
 
Jan Accord said:
I tryed to bleed with HDS activacting each brake per time, with pressure from top to bottom and vacum on the nipple, injecting oil from bottom to top... I tryed everey technique man have ever invented with no results.
The point is taht all 4 brakes are working perfectly but the pedal feel is like pressing s**t.
Click to expand...
With our mods then brakes should have a good feel to the pedal. Good pedal = confidence.

Do you think the brake master cylinder could be faulty/letting fluid past the seal?
 
Next week i will change the pads with Ferodo ones and rebleed the system again.
I will take you updated
 
Jan accord did you replace hoses as well ?

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Jan Accord said:
Next week i will change the pads with Ferodo ones and rebleed the system again.
I will take you updated
Click to expand...


Cheers mate. Looks like it could be down to the pads not handling the weight of the Accord!!!!
 
Maybe it's the German (ATE) ABS unit that comes on the diesel Accord. The ABS unit on the petrol Accords is Nissin.
 
hairline crack in hoses has been a issue, i suggest upgrade to braided hoses so there is less spongy feeling on pedal.
 
honda_saj said:
hairline crack in hoses has been a issue, i suggest upgrade to braided hoses so there is less spongy feeling on pedal.
Click to expand...
I have HEL brake lines and it still feel like s**t.
 
honda_saj said:
Jan accord did you replace hoses as well ?

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Click to expand...
Yes.
I have HEL ones.
That product i can reccomend for sure.
It's very very well made
 
Then I would have said servo as you replaced bmc iirc ? Which brand master cylinder did you fit ?

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There's something wrong with the brakes, it's got nothing to do with the Dot 5.1 which, unless you are into LeMans type endurance, is a waste of money.
Take the car back to whoever modded the brakes in the first place, though if you have a ABS/VSA module like mine you could try bleeding that first, saving you a couple of hours. I have a couple of posts when I replaced it in April.
 
I presume that, since the rest of the stock system on the diesel is ATE, then the servo must be as well.

So the issue could be ATE servo and/or ATE ABS.

On the petrol cars, stock is Nissin.
 
^what he said

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Channel Hopper said:
There's something wrong with the brakes, it's got nothing to do with the Dot 5.1 which, unless you are into LeMans type endurance, is a waste of money.
Take the car back to whoever modded the brakes in the first place, though if you have a ABS/VSA module like mine you could try bleeding that first, saving you a couple of hours. I have a couple of posts when I replaced it in April.
Click to expand...
Ok ok it's fairly obvious my diesel Accord isn't being used for LeMans Endurance. Its personal preference having braided lines. I felt it helped with my MB6 civic. I drive hard on Scotlands country roads and like to have cheapish mods to support my spirited drive.

Would Honda not bleed the ABS unit when they bled my brakes in your opinion? If not, is that worth a shout? (I get staff discount on parts/labour)

Thanks for replies people :)
 
Should could and would but did they personally I never leave car out of my sight if using garage I like to ensure work is done correct and no bolts or screws in back pocket. [emoji2] [emoji3]

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Burbleboy said:
Ok ok it's fairly obvious my diesel Accord isn't being used for LeMans Endurance. Its personal preference having braided lines. I felt it helped with my MB6 civic. I drive hard on Scotlands country roads and like to have cheapish mods to support my spirited drive.
Would Honda not bleed the ABS unit when they bled my brakes in your opinion? If not, is that worth a shout? (I get staff discount on parts/labour)
Thanks for replies people :)
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with braided lines, I use them myself on a number of bikes.

But you have brought up an interesting possibility about the ABS unit. I simply bled mine from the top down and then tightened the unions once the bubbles had stopped, but of course (with the working replacement) there are a number of additional tunnels / reservoirs inside that might not have had fluid completely through them once installed, which was possibly why mine felt spongy for about an hour.

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23411-wheel-sensors-my-experience-of-drilling-out/page-7#entry243779

Does the pedal feel different with the VSA disabled ?
 
Never tried turning VSA off. Will do that tonight when heading to work and see if pedal feels different.

When I got my brakes bled by Honda, tech brought the drain reservoir out and showed me that old fluid hadn't been changed EVER. It had a lot of contaminates in it and mould in the fluid reservoir. He cleaned it all out and bled normal fluid through it before replacing it with my 5.1.

Reason i never mentioned this was that it was bled thoroughly and ***umed all ok. Now that pedal softish...im thinking air might be still in VSA unit?
 
As first i have to say is that 5.1 oil is well reccomended in ABS/VSA units because of his lower viscosity, and the result is quicker ABS/VSA valves reaction because lower fluid resistance.
I tryed with two different brakes cilynders OEM and Metelli and with both had the same results.
As first i tryed normal bleed procedure, then i bleed the ABS/VSA as already mentioned from the top of the unit and then the brake cylinder at the conections.
I tryed to bleed with HDS activacting each valve at time.
I drived the car to two different Honda service centers and both confirmed that there is no air in the system.
Next week i will take apart everything and i will post if i will discover anything
 
Jan Accord said:
As first i have to say is that 5.1 oil is well reccomended in ABS/VSA units because of his lower viscosity, and the result is quicker ABS/VSA valves reaction because lower fluid resistance.
I tryed with two different brakes cilynders OEM and Metelli and with both had the same results.
As first i tryed normal bleed procedure, then i bleed the ABS/VSA as already mentioned from the top of the unit and then the brake cylinder at the conections.
I tryed to bleed with HDS activacting each valve at time.
I drived the car to two different Honda service centers and both confirmed that there is no air in the system.
Next week i will take apart everything and i will post if i will discover anything
Click to expand...
My God :0

That is alot of work you went to....and still no obvious resolve. Please keep us posted. Cheers
 
The fluid viscosity between the various DOTs - from memory - changes at the low temperatures, in winter starts or in arctic conditions (ie, below freezing).
There should be no variation between DOT4 and DOT5 when used in standard issue hydraulic systems normal operating temperatures.

The antifreeze components in the brake fluid might offer a better transfer through clogged pipes however in doing so it might also shift any long term debris to areas that were scrupulously clean beforehand.
 
Jan Accord said:
As first i have to say is that 5.1 oil is well reccomended in ABS/VSA units because of his lower viscosity, and the result is quicker ABS/VSA valves reaction because lower fluid resistance.
I tryed with two different brakes cilynders OEM and Metelli and with both had the same results.
As first i tryed normal bleed procedure, then i bleed the ABS/VSA as already mentioned from the top of the unit and then the brake cylinder at the conections.
I tryed to bleed with HDS activacting each valve at time.
I drived the car to two different Honda service centers and both confirmed that there is no air in the system.
Next week i will take apart everything and i will post if i will discover anything
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're thirsting for a twin pot upgrade.
 
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