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#1 2stageturbo

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:57 PM

Hi guys.
Long time lurker, 1st time poster.
I've a 2008 Accord 2.2 CDTI sport GT tourer with engine code N22A1.
She has 145,000 miles with a very good but not conclusive service history.

So I've got the dreaded cloud of white smoke from a cold start. This is gone after a few seconds but if I then press the accelerator I get a follow up cloud of blue smoke. Blue smoke goes after another few seconds.
So am I correct to assume I've a cracked manifold causing the white smoke ?

I am then assuming I've a problem with valve stem oil seals giving me the blue smoke. My reason for thinking this is being that the blue smoke goes once whatever oil is in the cylinders burns off.

Any thoughts on this diagnosis or am I wrong ?

The car pulls well and is overall close to mint considering its 1p years old. I'd consider doing the valve stem oil seals. If however it's further down in the engine as in piston rings I'm wary of the massive bill...

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#2 edgeoftime

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 10:34 AM

Is it drinking oil? does it blank out the following traffic? if not then stop worrying. Change your oil at 6,000 and a new filter at 12,000. 



#3 F6HAD

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 01:16 PM

More likely worn turbo seals on this engine I would say. How much oil does it use?
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#4 2stageturbo

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:05 PM

Drinking oil, no.
Burning some oil yes.
I serviced it 2 weeks ago. Oil and filter.
I keep a really close eye on the oil level.

Car was last serviced late December 2017 and since then has done about 4 thousand miles.
Used approx a pint or slightly more of oil in topping up between services.
Once the car has ran up to normal temperature all smoke, white and blue disappears.

If it's only the turbo seals id be a very happy man as I can deal with all those issues myself.

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#5 2stageturbo

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 09:34 AM

So since I've posted nothing has really changed. Same issues.
Can anyone recommend a parts supplier that delivers to Ireland where I can source the following ? :
1)Exhaust inlet manifold and gasket.
2)turbo seals/gaskets - change some or all seals in the turbo ?

I've done a fair bit of reading on the inlet manifold which is within my own mechanical skills set hopefully.

The turbo however is unknown territory for me.

Anyone got any links to part numbers or advice regarding changing turbo oil seals/gaskets.

Thanks [emoji106]

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#6 N1ks0n

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 05:42 PM

Turbo seals are not a DIY job as you need balancing which is done on a special machine. You need to get the turbo reconditioned by a shop or buy new turbo, but first you have to make sure if it is really the turbo. I have the same problem, mate. Check if you have any oil in the intake manifold. The easiest way is to pull the map sensor and see. Mine is drinking much more oil then yours and is smoking on start up too. I have some oil in the intake, but I'm not sure if it is blow-by or the turbo. Those are the two possible sources of oil (the breather and the turbo). I have created a separate thread and hope someone would help me identify how much blow-by is normal.

#7 2stageturbo

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 08:32 PM

Turbo seals are not a DIY job as you need balancing which is done on a special machine. You need to get the turbo reconditioned by a shop or buy new turbo, but first you have to make sure if it is really the turbo. I have the same problem, mate. Check if you have any oil in the intake manifold. The easiest way is to pull the map sensor and see. Mine is drinking much more oil then yours and is smoking on start up too. I have some oil in the intake, but I'm not sure if it is blow-by or the turbo. Those are the two possible sources of oil (the breather and the turbo). I have created a separate thread and hope someone would help me identify how much blow-by is normal.

Thanks for the input.

Since my original post it has now started to use more oil requiring more regular top ups  :(

 

I've looked into buying a reconditioned turbo. Cheapest reputable supplier I can find is based in England but I won't get much change back from €400.

With all the effort that's required to remove and replace the turbo, I'm now thinking of changing the exhaust manifold while I'm at it.

That's around another €200.

I've already began spraying the bolts around the turbo/manifold with a rust treatment/loosener in anticipation of the work ahead.

 

So before I do all that I'm booked in to a local garage for a compression test to see if there's a problem there. 

 

Bit disappointed really as the car drives really well and has plenty of power.

Engine runs and sounds nice and smooth but clearly blue smoke suggests problems  :(

 

I was planning to use this car for a few more years to come but I may now need to reconsider....



#8 Bounder

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 08:35 AM

You can get decent work done here in Ireland on Turbo's there are a few good places that sell recon ones.

The ICTDI is pretty good overall. Mine was 165 when it was written off in June and I had no issues with oil consumption but I stuck to 6k oil and filter while I had it.

I have a brand new spurious manifold that I was planning on fitting but never got a chance, mine was cracked but the only clue was a smokey smell in the morning when starting, once moving it was not noticeable.


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#9 2stageturbo

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 05:59 PM

Thanks for the reply....

You can get decent work done here in Ireland on Turbo's there are a few good places that sell recon ones.

 

Anywhere you recommend ?

 

 

The ICTDI is pretty good overall. Mine was 165 when it was written off in June and I had no issues with oil consumption but I stuck to 6k oil and filter while I had it.

 

I like the 7th generation a lot. For me it's a perfect all rounder

The service history was almost perfect and this is why I'm a little disappointed with this oil burning problem. It's got 150K and stills feels strong and good to go.

Don't mind putting a few quid quid into it to keep it sweet, but It's the uncertainty of what's wrong that's my main problem.

 

If the compression test comes back good, I'll whip out the turbo for a new, reconditioned one. While i'm in depths of the engine bay, I'll take out and replace the manifold for a new one.

 

 

 



#10 N1ks0n

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 01:42 PM

I have done a turbo swap with an one from the scraper yard. I had inspected it for shaft play and it seemed a good candidate. Mine did not have any shaft play too when I got it out, so it was probably not the culprit. The funny part is that after I have installed the turbo I have seen that the manifold is cracked. So you are heading the right direction. Change it with a cast iron aftermarket one. I will wait to see what the oil consumption will be like and if I'm satisfied I will fix the manifold. Did you check how much air is yours blowing out of the oil cap while running. Mine is pumping a lot making the cap dance, but I have no idea what is normal for this engine. I have 216k miles on the clock. If it continues to burn oil I will go for a cheap 5w30 oil and push as much as I can from the engine since I have repaired the suspension and have new dmf and clutch. This will be my last diesel honestly. The 2.2 i-ctdi is unreliable and a money pit for me.

Edited by N1ks0n, 05 September 2018 - 03:43 PM.


#11 Richard B

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Posted 06 September 2018 - 06:16 AM

I spotted a turbo core kit for the i-ctdi on aliexpress yesterday.  It's basically the guts of the turbo, already balanced.  They also sold the variable vanes but unless you've had a destructive failure I don't see how these would be damaged.

 

Turbos aren't especially complicated if you aren't building the core. Take a lot of photos during disassembly, mark positions of parts, clean everything well so you can spot worn surfaces etc.  There are some rebuild vids on youtube. 



#12 2stageturbo

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 09:13 AM

I've replaced the exhaust manifold for a new, spurious one i got from ebay.

I also bought a reconditioned turbo.

It's nearly 3 weeks since the new parts were installed and no difference  :(

 

So my cold start smoker continues to **** out smoke on start up.

 

I decided to get a second opinion so brought it to a local mechanic.

His opinion is the valve stem oil seals are gone and need replacing.

He also reckons while I'm doing major surgery on the car, it would be well worth doing the piston rings.

Faint blue smoke is now coming from the exhaust when the car is warm.

If it's revved high when warm, I can now see the smoke he described..

 

So all in all, the engine is on it's last legs



#13 N1ks0n

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 04:02 PM

Same situation here, mate. Oil consumption remains after the turbo swap. 500 ml per 1000 miles roughly. Mine burns the oil through blow by. The intake is covered in oil. So it is probably piston rings. Do you have oil in your intake? I will be switching to 5w40 to see if the blowby could be reduced.

#14 Richard B

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 04:22 PM

I've replaced valve stem oil seals on a previous car without major surgery by removing the cam and filling the cylinder with rope. Rotating the engine compressed the rope and stopped the valves from falling. I made a jig to compress the valve springs.

On a diesel the injector hole is the only place you have access though.

Just pointing out valve seals can be done without removing the head.

#15 2stageturbo

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for the reply..

Very interesting that you mentioned this.

I had been looking around at different options for the valve stem oil seal replacement.

I've read and seen some techniques used to carry this out using the technique you described. 

 

Can I ask how difficult the job was, given the limited access via the injector hole ?

Do you have any photos of the job or the jig you used ?

 

I'm not a mechanic but I'm pretty fearless and willing to give most things a go bar major engine surgery  :)

I'v a good level of skill and have a good amount of tools at my disposal...

I've replaced valve stem oil seals on a previous car without major surgery by removing the cam and filling the cylinder with rope. Rotating the engine compressed the rope and stopped the valves from falling. I made a jig to compress the valve springs.

On a diesel the injector hole is the only place you have access though.

Just pointing out valve seals can be done without removing the head.



#16 2stageturbo

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 05:29 PM

 Do you have oil in your intake? 

I haven't gone near the intake so i'm afraid I can't say.



#17 Richard B

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 09:00 AM

I'm not a mechanic but also am not afraid to tackle anything mechanical. 

 

The car I did wasn't as complex as the Accord diesel, it only had one cam and 8 valves, but the outcome was a success and cured smoking completely.  It wasn't a diesel, so access to the cylinder was straightforward via the spark plug hole, and I could use fairly thick cord. 

 

From what I read, getting the injectors out on the Accord will be a challenge, but given that, the rope / twine you use will be whatever you can get down there.  a couple of metres of Thin paracord should work. You just need to make sure you have the rope fully compressed against the valves, and the engine held in this position before tackling a cylinder's valves.  Get this wrong and you'll be removing the head just to retrieve a valve.  Push the cord into the cylinder with the cylinder fully down and then wind the engine towards TDC.  You won't get near TDC before the valves are firmly pushed into the valve seats.

 

The cord has 2 functions: stop the valves from dropping, and allowing spring compression independent of the valve to get the collar and retainers off the valve.  (I used strong magnets to catch the retainers). 

 

The jig I made was a 4mm steel plate, bent, cut and drilled to use threaded bolts in the cam bearing bolt holes to push the valve like this. I do have a photo but it's not digital and in a box somewhere. 

 

I wouldn't do it this way again, because various better tools for this are now really cheap on Ebay etc.  They weren't when I was doing this job in 2002.  These tools will make the job a hell of a lot easier. 

 

Take care to block all the oil return holes where stuff can fall down into the engine.  The valve retainers in particular can easily disappear down there. 

 

Make sure you know where No 1 Cylinder TDC is on the crank.  I'd remove the cams in that position, and reassemble it that way as well.

 

However, before you do any of this, have a look in the pipe between the turbo and intercooler and see how much oil you have in there. Valve seals are only the culprit if the air intake is dry.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#18 N1ks0n

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 09:44 AM

I'm not a mechanic but also am not afraid to tackle anything mechanical.

The car I did wasn't as complex as the Accord diesel, it only had one cam and 8 valves, but the outcome was a success and cured smoking completely. It wasn't a diesel, so access to the cylinder was straightforward via the spark plug hole, and I could use fairly thick cord.

From what I read, getting the injectors out on the Accord will be a challenge, but given that, the rope / twine you use will be whatever you can get down there. a couple of metres of Thin paracord should work. You just need to make sure you have the rope fully compressed against the valves, and the engine held in this position before tackling a cylinder's valves. Get this wrong and you'll be removing the head just to retrieve a valve. Push the cord into the cylinder with the cylinder fully down and then wind the engine towards TDC. You won't get near TDC before the valves are firmly pushed into the valve seats.

The cord has 2 functions: stop the valves from dropping, and allowing spring compression independent of the valve to get the collar and retainers off the valve. (I used strong magnets to catch the retainers).

The jig I made was a 4mm steel plate, bent, cut and drilled to use threaded bolts in the cam bearing bolt holes to push the valve like this. I do have a photo but it's not digital and in a box somewhere.

I wouldn't do it this way again, because various better tools for this are now really cheap on Ebay etc. They weren't when I was doing this job in 2002. These tools will make the job a hell of a lot easier.

Take care to block all the oil return holes where stuff can fall down into the engine. The valve retainers in particular can easily disappear down there.

Make sure you know where No 1 Cylinder TDC is on the crank. I'd remove the cams in that position, and reassemble it that way as well.

However, before you do any of this, have a look in the pipe between the turbo and intercooler and see how much oil you have in there. Valve seals are only the culprit if the air intake is dry.

We are all hobby mechanics. I am not afraid of doing any job too. I have oil in the intake, not pooling, but enough to jam the map sensor in 10k miles and fool it. So, I'm pretty sure it is not valves. Valve guide seals are not unknown of causing blowby, but this is rear. After I have changed the chains and the car sounded funny whining like a bee and this is considered normal by Honda I don't like this engine anymore. That is why I won't be investing time to do an engine overhaul. I will try thicker oil to reduce the blowby.

#19 Bounder

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:12 PM

I have heard of people using air pressure to hold the valves up if you can't feed rope into the chamber.

A glow plug could be hollowed out and an air fitting brazed on to hold the air line.


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#20 2stageturbo

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:11 PM

I've seen this technique used in several YouTube videos. 

A couple of these videos were really good and very detailed.

 

Only thing was, they all carried out this technique on petrol engines.

Personally, I'm a little out of my comfort zone working on diesel engines..

 

 

From what I read, getting the injectors out on the Accord will be a challenge, but given that, the rope / twine you use will be whatever you can get down there.  a couple of metres of Thin paracord should work. You just need to make sure you have the rope fully compressed against the valves, and the engine held in this position before tackling a cylinder's valves.  Get this wrong and you'll be removing the head just to retrieve a valve.  Push the cord into the cylinder with the cylinder fully down and then wind the engine towards TDC.  You won't get near TDC before the valves are firmly pushed into the valve seats.