Jump to content


Photo

Cleaning EGR passage ways


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 Danger Mouse

Danger Mouse

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Name:Ian
  • Car :2.2 i-ctdi Tourer
  • LocationHuddersfield

Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:24 PM

Hi Folks.
After chatting with a mate at work about his Ford Galaxy EGR & dealer problems I decided to have a peek at the Honda's set up.
I looked around on t'internet but didn't find anything that directly related to the Accord 2.2 i-ctdi, so I set about the car with the socket set!

The bits:
Under the plastic cover and at the front of the engine there is the intake manifold and attached to that on the right hand side (looking at the engine from infront of the car) there is a butterfly valve block and the connection from the Charge Air Cooler (CAC). Attached to the front of the manifold there is a st/st link pipe that connects the EGR cooler to the intake manifold, the EGR cooler is under the manifold and the EGR valve is attached to the right of the engine block, I didn't look at that 'cos it looked too much like hard work.

The system:
EGR is a method of introducing an inert volume of gas into the combustion chamber to reduce the combustion temperature to less than 2500 deg C. This is the critical temperature where NOx is created.
Now, does the ECU know that the passage way is restricted and not letting the right volume of gas in?
And is the restriction messing up the clean running of the engine, perhaps making it less efficient or more smoky?

The gas route is known as the long route and is taken from the low pressure side of the turbo controlled with a valve, cooled and fed into the intake. In the case of the Honda the link pipe connects to a plenum in the manifold and is then fed through an open passage to mix with the air from the CAC then to go into the manifold again.

To be continued...
Engineering design & 3D printing
www.red-arete.co.uk

#2 saj

saj

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts
  • Name:m
  • LocationEnfield

Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:41 PM

Following a recent discussion with CJ, he suggested the use of a fuel treatment by these guys:
http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/

I was on the phone today for about 15 minutes with Andy from powerenhancer who basically said the passages are so small within the EGR system that it could easily get clogged up throwing up insufficient flow on the EGR. Symptoms are also supposed to include blacksmoke. The fuel treatments allow the blocked up passages of carbon to be burnt off at a lwoer temperature, thus clearing the blockage. I would suspect simply changing an EGR valve for a new one may not resolve this issue completely as the carbon is still built inside the passageways as what has happened to a few people on here already.

I've done a bit of reading up on the diesel treatment from this company and its quite good. I think there have been one or two other members who have used it too. I will be putting the diesel treatment into the 7th gen over the next few days and report back with any improvements. I think I will remove the valve and scrape off as much carbon as I can, then add the cleaner to the tank of fuel.

#3 F6HAD

F6HAD

    Affiliate / Co-Founder

  • Administrators
  • 9,918 posts
  • Name:Fahad
  • Car :2012 BMW 520D F10
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:54 PM

Very interesting stuff guys..

I've not tried that fuel treatment but I have continuously been using V Power Diesel for almost 2 years and over 40k miles now - and I don't really experience any heavy smoking on full throttle (and it regularly gets full throttle). I've never taken my EGR off to inspect it but I do firmly believe that the great reliability I've seen on my engine has been two main things:

Good clean fuel and Good Oil.

There is no secret and it's not rocket science. Use the best fuel, and the cleaning agents inside the fuel will eventually help keep everything they touch and pass through.. clean.

I might try some of that fuel cleaner at some point, but to be honest I'm a firm believer in proactive maintenance. No point waiting for the problem to happen and then retrospectively try to fix it.
Posted Image
Mobile Engine Chiptuning & Remapping Specialists

Cars tuned from £199 at base + Enquire about our DPF & EGR OFF services

info@premiertuning.com or Facebook

#4 saj

saj

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts
  • Name:m
  • LocationEnfield

Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:28 AM

Agree with you there Fahad. From what i've read and speaking to Andy from the company, it seems the product is more towards restoring the original performance of the engine rather than "add this and gain 500BHP" claims. I couldnt agree more with sticking to VPD and regular quality oil changes, but over time, carbon is bound to build up regardless IMHO.

#5 saj

saj

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts
  • Name:m
  • LocationEnfield

Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:31 AM

what was the cause of the EGR failing? Was it the motorised section of the valve, internal passageway of the valve or something else? I remember there being quite a few threads regarding this on the site we lost, but cant remember the details that well.

#6 F6HAD

F6HAD

    Affiliate / Co-Founder

  • Administrators
  • 9,918 posts
  • Name:Fahad
  • Car :2012 BMW 520D F10
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:07 AM

CJ - do we have further details on the fuel treatment and if there is a set deal for the club? I can't remember where we got with it?
Posted Image
Mobile Engine Chiptuning & Remapping Specialists

Cars tuned from £199 at base + Enquire about our DPF & EGR OFF services

info@premiertuning.com or Facebook

#7 F6HAD

F6HAD

    Affiliate / Co-Founder

  • Administrators
  • 9,918 posts
  • Name:Fahad
  • Car :2012 BMW 520D F10
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:42 AM

CJ, Ok mate - I definitely have an open mind about this stuff so am willing to give it a go. Is there a deal for us?
Posted Image
Mobile Engine Chiptuning & Remapping Specialists

Cars tuned from £199 at base + Enquire about our DPF & EGR OFF services

info@premiertuning.com or Facebook

#8 F6HAD

F6HAD

    Affiliate / Co-Founder

  • Administrators
  • 9,918 posts
  • Name:Fahad
  • Car :2012 BMW 520D F10
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:55 AM

Some interesting stuff here. As it's an American product, who better to ask than the Americans:

http://www.peachpart...ad.php?t=280458

One thing is clear BG have a strong marketing machine. What I gather from this thread is that for the diesel application at least, it's not a bad product but it won't work miracles. Something called Seafoam seems to be the flavour of the month.

If anyone buys and tries this stuff in their diesel, please do report back. For the time being, I'm of the view.. if it ain't broke... leave it be ;)
Posted Image
Mobile Engine Chiptuning & Remapping Specialists

Cars tuned from £199 at base + Enquire about our DPF & EGR OFF services

info@premiertuning.com or Facebook

#9 Danger Mouse

Danger Mouse

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Name:Ian
  • Car :2.2 i-ctdi Tourer
  • LocationHuddersfield

Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:01 PM

I agree that the VPD is the best fuel available but also the normal shell fuel does seem to be significantly better than other brands too.

The EGR passageways after the EGR cooler are about 35mm dia, not so small as to clog up easily I would have thought.
I'll just add here that nothing has broken or become faulty, I just got curious.

Continued from above:
What I found:
I removed the link pipe first, this is the easiest bit to get to, and in it there was no significant build up just a thin layer of soot. However in the manifold there is a plenum feature, that I mentioned before, this was guinked up. I can not say if it was completley blocked as I started digging out the gunk with a lolly stick.
What I realised was I should have taken of the CAC feed and the valve block first to see the extent of the gunking. If you are going to try this it's best to remove the cover stand-off and little bracket that is attached to the valve block and then take the block completley out. It was the same story in the valve block, heavily gunked and when I dug into the dusty surface the deposit was a viscus sticky black tar.
The whole de-gunking operation liberated about 1/2 a mug full of gunk, mostly from the plenum.

Equipment:
Latex Gloves
White spirit
Lolly sticks
Kitchen roll
Socket set

Suposition:
I think that the exhaust gas is still warm when it gets to the manifold and the manifold is cooled by the air from the CAC, this then cools the Exhaust gas quickly depositing its gunk. There was a generous coating of tar on the CAC link elbow and I am wondering if much gunk makes its way in to the CAC reducing its efficiency.
When I started the car after I put everything back together the MIL lamp lit up and gave the error P2017, I had forgotten to plug in one of the sensors. There does not seem to be a significant change in the cars performance but I am convinced the engine is making a slightly differant 'tone' and I think that it might be less smoky under full load.
Results from the fuel efficiancy test will follow, the car is being run mostly through town at an average speed of 15mph (that windes me up!) with lots and lots of traffic lights.
Engineering design & 3D printing
www.red-arete.co.uk

#10 saj

saj

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts
  • Name:m
  • LocationEnfield

Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:44 PM

Ian, this is all very interesting. Any chance of getting some pics up mate?

#11 F6HAD

F6HAD

    Affiliate / Co-Founder

  • Administrators
  • 9,918 posts
  • Name:Fahad
  • Car :2012 BMW 520D F10
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 13 August 2010 - 02:10 PM

Ian, definitely very very interesting and this is the basis for a very valuable DIY write up. Please please please get some pics up for us :angry:
Posted Image
Mobile Engine Chiptuning & Remapping Specialists

Cars tuned from £199 at base + Enquire about our DPF & EGR OFF services

info@premiertuning.com or Facebook

#12 saj

saj

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts
  • Name:m
  • LocationEnfield

Posted 13 August 2010 - 04:14 PM

I havnt put my order in yet. Can i have the code too please?

#13 F6HAD

F6HAD

    Affiliate / Co-Founder

  • Administrators
  • 9,918 posts
  • Name:Fahad
  • Car :2012 BMW 520D F10
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 14 August 2010 - 03:54 PM

Dave, air filter should definitely help - I always feel a positive benefit when I change mine. Good work on the EGR valve mate.
Posted Image
Mobile Engine Chiptuning & Remapping Specialists

Cars tuned from £199 at base + Enquire about our DPF & EGR OFF services

info@premiertuning.com or Facebook

#14 gathor

gathor

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 575 posts
  • Name:dan
  • Car :Tourer
  • LocationTaunton

Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:38 PM

Nicely done mate. Will try that for sure:)
dan

#15 saj

saj

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts
  • Name:m
  • LocationEnfield

Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:48 PM

im gona be doing this tomorrow morning. I'll be sure to get as many pics as possible.

#16 ukaccord

ukaccord

    TAF Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,390 posts
  • Name:sufian rahaman
  • Car :accord icdti
  • Locationeast london

Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:28 PM

good one saj......had similar problems with my mates golf....the car had been run on supermarket fuel for a good couple of years(7 of so)in th end the mpg was bad as well as the throttle responce....could be same issue for some of the accords on here....
HASHIRIYA-A WAY OF LIFE

#17 gathor

gathor

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 575 posts
  • Name:dan
  • Car :Tourer
  • LocationTaunton

Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:09 PM

I used carb & brake cleaner but be warned - make sure you use it sparingly & clean it all up then wait for the remains to evaporate. I didn't and when I started her up it sounded like I'd wrecked the engine. I was sweating like a fat lass at a rave for a good half hour. Panic over, although it feels better, it is still a little hesitant. We'll see what difference the air filter makes.

Just a thought, perhaps some loose bits were left in the air intake once you cleaned it and were sucked in? That would explain the sound you talking about. I dont think carb cleaner would be able to break the engine.
Is it possible to dismantle the intake manifold to clean it properly?
dan

#18 gathor

gathor

    Advanced Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 575 posts
  • Name:dan
  • Car :Tourer
  • LocationTaunton

Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:42 PM

D`oh! I thought it will be a bit simpler:) The symptoms you describe sound terrible mate, you got me scared now. Still will have a go at EGR weather permitting. I will aslo replace air filter and clean air intake hoses.
dan

#19 Ezhik

Ezhik

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 188 posts
  • Name:Ed
  • Car :Accord Tourer i-ctdi
  • LocationLeics

Posted 17 August 2010 - 08:14 AM

I'm following this thread carefully. If I drive at low rpm, using the torque available after the Elite stage 1 remap, after a short time it really puffs out clouds of black soot when I put my foot down. If I drive a bit more 'enthusiastically' I don't see the soot. I'd like to keep my other style of driving, mostly town and windy country roads with 50mph limits. At my age there is no point in revving up to shoot from one set of lights to the next, or cruising along a straight road with a 50 limit in 3rd when I can do it 5th or 6th. Though when I do drive that way the next time I want pull off quick, the clouds of soot are embarrassing.

I was going to have the EGR off for an examination and clean, but I know it will be filthy, the question is; is it sticking open a little? Having read up about BG244 mention in this thread, (though I'm not a fan of 'additives' or 'miracle' cleaners generally), I'm going to give that a go first. For the price of a less than half a tank of fuel it seems like it's worth a go. My car had done 82,000 miles when I got it, having no idea what fuel it has had for all those miles a good clean won't go amiss anyway.

I'll report back after the BG244 has been run through.

#20 TheHole

TheHole

    TAF Member

  • TA Friends
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,277 posts
  • Name:Adam
  • Car :Honda 2.2 i -ctdi
  • LocationLee on Solent

Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:36 AM

im gona be doing this tomorrow morning. I'll be sure to get as many pics as possible.


any luck ?
Posted Image