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H22a7 power after a tune?


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#1 Merlin

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 08:28 AM

Hi all. Any one have a rough estimate of how much power will the H22a7 can make off a tune (crome P28 ECU) with a Fujitsubo manifold, 2.5" decat, and 2.5" exhaust?

Are there any examples on the forum of anyone who has previously gone down this route?

Cheers.
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#2 Merlin

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 09:10 AM

Sorry, it kept giving me a server error and I thought it hadnt posted so I clicked post again :( I cant delete the old threads, can a mod clean it up?

Edited by Merlin, 13 April 2011 - 09:10 AM.

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#3 93 accord

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:06 PM

p28 ecu is open, it is programmable. Crome as im guessing you know is a free ecu software, allowing you to adjust and tune what you need.

You can adjust all sorts of things with Crome, such as vtec crossover point etc etc, but, if you know what your doing you can get around 15-20bhp if the motor is standard.

And yes, p28, Crome, h22a is a popular setup, there is loads of informative info on this.

Edited by 93 accord, 13 April 2011 - 01:07 PM.

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#4 luvmyaccord

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 08:40 PM

WIth those mods you should be able to see a good 10bhp increase. hopefully somewhere around the 15 mark as Marcus has said.

Mines in getting it's ECU and mapped this week, i'll let you know the power figures when i get it back.

As you're getting the ECU done surely it'd be rude not have a nice set of cams put in. ;)
2001 Milano Red, Eibach springs, VtecDirect Mani, downpipe, decat and zorst, ported and polished head, K+N panel filter, VtecDirect oil cooler, lightweight pullies, XTD lightweight flywheel, Full new set of valves retainers and springs, DS250 pads, Bremtech disks, throttle body coolant bypass, New standard ATR cams and a re-built head, balance belt removed, Volk TE37 - resprayed in Anthracite. Light Tints, K+N Long Ram Typhoon.
1997 Impreza 555 RA - New Cosworth forged pistons and matching piston rings *.50 oversize.**Rebore block to suit New Crankshaft. New race quality crank bearing set. APi uprated oil pump.STi 2003 year model con rods.STi gasket and seal set, baffeled sump.* Stage 2 organic clutch, lightweight competition spec. Flywheel and balance, TD05G20 Turbo, Standalone ECU, 650cc injectors. HDi Hybrid racing front mount intercooler.

#5 Merlin

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 08:28 AM

luvmyaccord - How much power are you getting from your mods at the moment before your tune?

TBH I would be quite dissapointed with an additional 10bhp only, are you sure thats the right ball park figure?. The H22a7 is to go in my 4th gen Prelude track car which at the moment has an H22a2 in it. The H22a2 is 183bhp in its stock form, with the Fujitsubo manifold, 2.5" decat, and 2.5" exhaust, plus a JDM Spoon ECU it makes 200bhp (17bhp up on the stock figure).
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#6 93 accord

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 11:50 AM

luvmyaccord - How much power are you getting from your mods at the moment before your tune?

TBH I would be quite dissapointed with an additional 10bhp only, are you sure thats the right ball park figure?. The H22a7 is to go in my 4th gen Prelude track car which at the moment has an H22a2 in it. The H22a2 is 183bhp in its stock form, with the Fujitsubo manifold, 2.5" decat, and 2.5" exhaust, plus a JDM Spoon ECU it makes 200bhp (17bhp up on the stock figure).



Allister, if the a2 is making 200bhp, then why are you planning to put in the a7? thats only a small increase 12bhp. you better off just tuning the a2 some more, like Simon says stick in some cams, you already have the ecu to optimise the cams. The a2 cammed will be around the 225 mark, more than a ecu tuned a7 and without the engine swap hassle.

Also Simon where the hell are you, we missing you here dude.

Edited by 93 accord, 14 April 2011 - 11:53 AM.

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#7 Merlin

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 01:26 PM

The rationale im going on is that if I can make 17bhp off those mods and a "one size fits all" ECU*, I should make at least the same gains (hopefully more) off the a7 with those mods and a proper tune.

*The ECU is actually meant for JDM engines, but im using it on a UK lower compression engine.


When comparing the a2 I have now and the a7, the a7 has amongst others:

higher comp pistons
55mm crank vs the 50m in the a2
more aggressive cams
bigger throttle body
better intake manifold


I was hoping that this tread would yield some power figures from people who has already tuned the a7 so I may see what potential is there. Some peeps over on Prelude UK have put ATR cams in their JDM H22a's (plus other breathing mods) and tuned it and made proven 130bhp.


Thanks for the input :)

Edited by Merlin, 14 April 2011 - 01:27 PM.

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#8 luvmyaccord

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 08:51 PM

The problem with the A7 is that it's already a HIGHLY tuned engine from the factory. So any gains you get are a fair bit smaller than they are from the A2 or any other H22 variant.

With the A7 things like a ported and polished head do NOTHING without a nice set of cams, but with the cams it makes a difference. It's all really complicated apparently. My list of mods is under my posts in my sigs and i'm hoping for 250fhp. That's only a gain of 38 on standard and it's cost me thousands. A lot of it depends on the tuner and who's mapping the car. Trying to get all the mods to work together is the main issue here.

For instance once my cars been mapped, then i fit a typhoon to replace the K+N panel i'll need to get the car mapped again to take into account the extra airflow that's afforded from the Typhoon. If you're looking for huge power gains, (anything over 280fhp), then you really have to go donw the FI route which is anything from £4000+. Even stage 2 cams instead of stage 1 for instance only make a differnence if you've got a decent tuner and someone that can set the car up correctly and help with writing a map for that individual car via the ECU.

But to be honest with the mods i've personally got to my car i really dont think that you need much more power. Once you reach 260fhp you need to start looking at loosing weight. Anymore power and you'll end up loosing the handling that makes Hondas, in particular the ATR the second best handling front wheel drive car ever.

After the power comes lightweight wheels, then suspension, then bracing, then brakes, and somewhere in here is stripping the interior.

With regard to power, there are not many people who have managed to top 260whp without going down the FI route, or are running a car than will last more than 1000 miles. I'll let you know the results of mine in about a week.

Hope this helps fella. Sorry if it sounds negative. It's not meant to.
2001 Milano Red, Eibach springs, VtecDirect Mani, downpipe, decat and zorst, ported and polished head, K+N panel filter, VtecDirect oil cooler, lightweight pullies, XTD lightweight flywheel, Full new set of valves retainers and springs, DS250 pads, Bremtech disks, throttle body coolant bypass, New standard ATR cams and a re-built head, balance belt removed, Volk TE37 - resprayed in Anthracite. Light Tints, K+N Long Ram Typhoon.
1997 Impreza 555 RA - New Cosworth forged pistons and matching piston rings *.50 oversize.**Rebore block to suit New Crankshaft. New race quality crank bearing set. APi uprated oil pump.STi 2003 year model con rods.STi gasket and seal set, baffeled sump.* Stage 2 organic clutch, lightweight competition spec. Flywheel and balance, TD05G20 Turbo, Standalone ECU, 650cc injectors. HDi Hybrid racing front mount intercooler.

#9 luvmyaccord

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 08:52 PM

Allister, if the a2 is making 200bhp, then why are you planning to put in the a7?


Because it's the second best engine Honda have ever made :lol: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:
2001 Milano Red, Eibach springs, VtecDirect Mani, downpipe, decat and zorst, ported and polished head, K+N panel filter, VtecDirect oil cooler, lightweight pullies, XTD lightweight flywheel, Full new set of valves retainers and springs, DS250 pads, Bremtech disks, throttle body coolant bypass, New standard ATR cams and a re-built head, balance belt removed, Volk TE37 - resprayed in Anthracite. Light Tints, K+N Long Ram Typhoon.
1997 Impreza 555 RA - New Cosworth forged pistons and matching piston rings *.50 oversize.**Rebore block to suit New Crankshaft. New race quality crank bearing set. APi uprated oil pump.STi 2003 year model con rods.STi gasket and seal set, baffeled sump.* Stage 2 organic clutch, lightweight competition spec. Flywheel and balance, TD05G20 Turbo, Standalone ECU, 650cc injectors. HDi Hybrid racing front mount intercooler.

#10 Pumpingiron

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 10:46 AM

I don´t know why the people in Europe is so afraid to play with the H´s or even the F´s...

A good friend of mine took the already very powerful H23vtec from japan, aka 200bhp (same cams as h22a7), took the intake plenum out and work the s**** out of it (similar as h22a2)...Tuned with eCtune, exhaust 3", throttle plate 68mm, with some Tri-y replicas e made out 210 WHEEL hp....(both on dynapack and mustang dyno making fairly close numbers, so dyno´s bias is not so much an issue)!

You can easily outperform a stock h22a7 with a h22a2, simply do the right modification!
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#11 93 accord

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:25 AM

If i spent £1000 on engine work on my F20a, id have more than 200bhp and more than 200lbs of torque.

If i spent £1000 on engine work on an h22a2, id have more than 200bhp but less than 200lbs of torque.

therefore a h22a would be a slower option.

If you spent £1000 on a h22a7 it would be quicker, as it starts at 212bhp so the gain would be 250-260bhp, and 200lbs of torque.

So compared to a F20a your only gaining 50bhp, thats not including buying the engine!

If you already have a h22a7 then £1000 for 60bhp..... its costly.

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#12 Merlin

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 01:18 PM

Hi all, my H22a7 turned up the other day. It only cost me £360.

The a2 only has 183bhp from the factory, there is no way I could get 30 more bhp from the a2 from only spending £360. Upgrading to the a7 (or at least using parts of it) will give me a better platform to get more power in the future. Considering popular power yielding mods to Prelude engines are using the H22a7 intake manfold and PDE head/cams, im going to have more power straight off the bat and thats not taking into consideration mods and tuning. The a7 will be used in my 4th gen track car, so at the moment my primary concern is to spend as little as possible. The upgrade to the H22a7 is the best £/bhp improvement I could think of whilst retaining reliability. Obviously I could have gone turbo, but its a risky manuvre as every month I see turbo cars limping off the track.

Im going to be doing the swap over the next few months, I'll post back any reults I find.

Edited by Merlin, 06 May 2011 - 01:22 PM.

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#13 luvmyaccord

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 10:56 PM

If it's pure power you want and budget is no problem then you'll be best off with starting with something like a H or F23 and then really going to town on it. A full blown race engine (reliable) is going to cost £5000 for the engine work alone.

As you've said Alister, the best performance gain per £ you're going to see, will be to drop the H22A7 into the car. Then after that's done you can look into tuning that if you want more...(and trust me, you will :lol: ). At the end of the day it's all about £ Vs Perfomance Vs reliability.

A modded H22A2 will outperform a stock H22A7, but then again a modded H22A7 will out perform a modded H22A2 if they both had the same amount of money spent on them. Anything's possible with money to throw at it, but with the world we live in we are (most of us anyway) on a budget, and that dictates the amount of modifications, and thus the amount of power/performance your engine will give you.

P.S Allister, any chance of some work in progress pics of the swap? Also, how'd you manage to get an A7 so cheaply? ECU, 'box, ancilaries included? Pressure tested? Really looking forward to seeing this progress. It's gonna be IMMENSE!!!!!
2001 Milano Red, Eibach springs, VtecDirect Mani, downpipe, decat and zorst, ported and polished head, K+N panel filter, VtecDirect oil cooler, lightweight pullies, XTD lightweight flywheel, Full new set of valves retainers and springs, DS250 pads, Bremtech disks, throttle body coolant bypass, New standard ATR cams and a re-built head, balance belt removed, Volk TE37 - resprayed in Anthracite. Light Tints, K+N Long Ram Typhoon.
1997 Impreza 555 RA - New Cosworth forged pistons and matching piston rings *.50 oversize.**Rebore block to suit New Crankshaft. New race quality crank bearing set. APi uprated oil pump.STi 2003 year model con rods.STi gasket and seal set, baffeled sump.* Stage 2 organic clutch, lightweight competition spec. Flywheel and balance, TD05G20 Turbo, Standalone ECU, 650cc injectors. HDi Hybrid racing front mount intercooler.

#14 Pumpingiron

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:17 PM

Are you serious guy's, a modded h22a7 will outperform a modded h22a2??? Come on is the same engine, if you put same cams, pistons, head-work and tuning how come the h22a7 will outperform the h22a2??

I don't know what you get for 360quid down there but i will be able to at least do the exhaust and intake and with good basic intake porting on the oem one it will reach the 30bhp with a good tuning!

The ATR manifold is not the best around, it's very good yes, but you can reach great hp and surpassing the Type R CFM easily.

For real race track performance you don't want to stick with the FRM sleeves, and the close deck is the way to go......but hey you had already did your move, good luck with your project!
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#15 luvmyaccord

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:36 PM

I meant that if you did the same mods to the two differnent engines you'd be better off with the A7. Simply becuase you don't need to be putting in different pistons, or doing as much head work. So you'll be saving money there already. I was only comparing the 2 based on spending the same amount of money on the,

I know that you could spend more money on the A2 and have a better result than the A7, but if you were to do the same mods (Cams, ECU, exhaust, mani) then you'll end up with a better engnine simply by starting with the A7. I know that there isn't much difference between the 2, And i'm in no way insulting the A2, it's a great engine, but it does start with 198bhp, Vs the 212 from the A7. Thats all.

Sorry for any confusion dude.
2001 Milano Red, Eibach springs, VtecDirect Mani, downpipe, decat and zorst, ported and polished head, K+N panel filter, VtecDirect oil cooler, lightweight pullies, XTD lightweight flywheel, Full new set of valves retainers and springs, DS250 pads, Bremtech disks, throttle body coolant bypass, New standard ATR cams and a re-built head, balance belt removed, Volk TE37 - resprayed in Anthracite. Light Tints, K+N Long Ram Typhoon.
1997 Impreza 555 RA - New Cosworth forged pistons and matching piston rings *.50 oversize.**Rebore block to suit New Crankshaft. New race quality crank bearing set. APi uprated oil pump.STi 2003 year model con rods.STi gasket and seal set, baffeled sump.* Stage 2 organic clutch, lightweight competition spec. Flywheel and balance, TD05G20 Turbo, Standalone ECU, 650cc injectors. HDi Hybrid racing front mount intercooler.

#16 Pumpingiron

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 08:12 AM

It´s true that the cams, intake manifold and pistons are the main reason for the 14hp difference...

Don´t worry i´m not a little boy who get´s upset about having different opinions, i´m just amazed how some people don´t see how great stuff they already have.... ok if you only have money for basic mods in your race car i do understand your point.

A basic h22a1 (180hp one usdm) can reach with good tuning on dyno and the basic I/E/H a 190/200whp...witch is more than a h22a7 stock BUT once you did the same to the h22a7 you will not be 30whp more...that´s my point.

Anyways...still got your h22a2? Want to sell?? Love H´s...i want to make a H with 280whp, making some K´s jealous :lol:
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#17 Merlin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 10:25 AM

The reason I got it so cheap was that it has suspected auto tensioner failure. I know that it could spell death or an expensive to fix, but Im hoping that all it requires is a new timing belt and auto tensioner. The previous owner said that the engine would not turn over. Im hopefull as the exact same thing happened to the H22a8 in my road Prelude (pretty much the same engine), although I think the amount of damage sustained is dependent on weither it was in VTEC when the tensioner failed. I know all of that is based on wishfull thinking, but in the end of the day if its that goosed that I cant use the block and the valves are fooked I can still use the cams (or the whole head after fixing it), intake mani, TB etc and easily make my purchase worthwhile for what I paid for it.

The list of available H22's:

H22a2 - 183 (10.0:1)
H22a5 - 185 (10.0:1)
H22a - 197 (10.6:1)
H22a8 - 197 (11.0:1)
H22a7 - 212 (11.0:1) <-?
H22a - 217 (Prelude Type-S & S-SPEC) (11.0:1)

Yeah I could have just stuck with the a2 but its only 183 from the factory and with its lower compression pistons there just isnt enough potential there for me without spending £££ and having to pull the engine apart. I dont have the cash to go all motor on its ***, just basic breathing mods (which I already have) and a tune (I already have the ECU and know who I can get to tune it).

The engine came with intake manifold, 62mm throttle body (larger than the a2 TB), fuel rail and injectors. Although I dont think I can use the injectors (and IACV) anyway as im going OBDI.
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The car its going into:
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JDM base Prelude - No sunroof, cruise control, or ABS

Engine / transmission:
UKDM H22a2
Spoon JDM P13 ECU - VTEC @ 5K (no limiter)
NGK Platinum spark plugs
Amsoil synthetic manual gearbox fluid
HAMP oil filter
Petronas Selenia 5W-40 ACEA "C3" oil
K&N Flat panel filter with resonator removed
Goodridge braided clutch hose & clutch dampener delete
Fujitsubo exhaust manifold
2.4" SS Japspeed decat
2.4" straight through SS Japspeed exhaust
Aircon removed


Suspension / wheels / brakes:
Ebay front upper brace
Spoon rear upper strut brace
Megan Racing rear underbrace
Unknow brand of lowering springs on stock shocks
Konig 17" 7 spoke alloys wrapped in 215/40/17 Uniroyal RainSport 2's
Honda OEM wheel nuts
Kosei 17" 10 spoke alloys wrapped in 20/61/17 (approx 215/40/17 in road size) Michelin full slicks
Grayston Round Chrome Tuner Nuts
Castrol Response Super DOT 4 brake fluid
EBC blank discs
Hawk HP+ brake pads
Honda OEM rear pads
Braided brake hoses


Exterior:
One piece headlights
One windeflector on the drivers side :P
Electric folding mirrors
Dark glass side and rear windows
Aerial removed
Rear wiper removed

Interior:
Nardi leather steering wheel & gear knob
Stripped interior
Custom short shifter

Posted Image

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Edited by Merlin, 09 May 2011 - 10:49 AM.

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#18 Pumpingiron

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 10:55 AM

Iacv are different as well as injectors (290cc vs 375cc if i recall correctly), for the iacv you can cancel it, but in winter is not the best move!

As for the tensionor why don´t you go for the manual conversion? I have it on my ATR and it´s bolt-on, just make sure to tight it up at the correct torquing specs! The previous owner of my ATR mess-up with the mounting of the manual tensionor, and it bent 1 exhaust valve in each cylinder...I´m now rebuilding the head!

Very beautiful Prelude by the way! It´s the most beautiful generation!

BTW notice something on the graf...155whp only? well tune can make a 10whp more! But since you go A7 do it on that one! Do you know what is the 14hp difference between the h22a7 and h22a8...only the intake manifold...but basically also the media that Honda did was to promote a stronger car, but probably if you do a dyno run back to back of the 2 cars you will see is less than that!

Keep posting the progress of the car, love it!
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#19 Merlin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 11:27 AM

Oh for sure im going to use the H23 manual tensioner, one of the many little jobs that will be done while its being prepared (thermal gaskets, baffeled sump etc.....)

I think its that particualr dyno that is making me only show 155whp, it did the same for my H22a8 Prelude.
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#20 Pumpingiron

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 11:44 AM

Did you find any good thermal gasket(besides hondata) i was looking for that also, but phenoleic gaskets are hard to find for us h22a7 IM!

I do also have to make my one baffled pan since nobody makes good ones for H22! I wish i can have the engine out like you, simple 125$ for the BS eliminator, i´m stick with belt removal!

Keep us updated!!
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