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wrong battery from honda?

M

mat

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Location
Torquay
Car
09 EX GT Tourer
hi guys

i have recently replaced the battery on my accord (battery from dealership using reg plate) following trouble starting it, all seemed well at first, but the problem has come back.

if the car is left for 6+ hours it won't start, it turns over a couple of times slowly and then just rapidly clicks.

i have checked a few things with my multimeter:

battery voltage with engine off: 12.48V
current drain with engine off: 0.03A
battery voltage with engine on: 14.2V

nothing out of the ordinary, so i've checked the battery itself, a HONDA 31500-SEF-E01-HE, on the LINGS parts website it says to use a PFKL2033166 BATTERY ***Y. (JOHNSON) £66.29 - i'm not sure if these are one and the same as when i use 31500-SEF-E01-HE in the LINGS parts finder it returns BATTERY,***Y CAR PART, which doesn't really help me.

most confusing, the only thing i can think of is that this new battery hasn't got the cranking amps it should have, or something, can anyone help??

thanks,


mat.
 
That battery voltage is quite low. I think something is draining your battery when you leave it. Unlikely a dealership supplied the wrong battery, especially giving them the reg of your car.
If the battery was not big enough it wouldn't have worked when you first changed it.
 
The battery voltage sounds fine. Its a 12 volt battery after all so should hold just over 12 volts when charged. And when being charged the alternator should produce around 14 volts so both figures look right. If you still have the old battery see if you can see the battery type and the cranking amps it states on it and compare it to the new battery. The dealership could well have accidentally supplied you with the wrong battery, it's easily done, and your battery is not producing the required cranking amps needed.

What was your original trouble starting the car? Are the symptoms exactly the same or different when starting? Did the old battery last just as long i.e. 6 hours before apparently failing?
 
Rob said:
That battery voltage is quite low. I think something is draining your battery when you leave it. Unlikely a dealership supplied the wrong battery, especially giving them the reg of your car.
If the battery was not big enough it wouldn't have worked when you first changed it.
Click to expand...

the current drain is only 0.03 amps though when the engine is off? also bear in mind that the voltages and amps were checked this morning after the car had a totally flat battery.

i have just disconnected both negative and positive terminals and the voltage still reads 12.48V


mat.
 
Doc said:
The battery voltage sounds fine. Its a 12 volt battery after all so should hold just over 12 volts when charged. And when being charged the alternator should produce around 14 volts so both figures look right. If you still have the old battery see if you can see the battery type and the cranking amps it states on it and compare it to the new battery. The dealership could well have accidentally supplied you with the wrong battery, it's easily done, and your battery is not producing the required cranking amps needed.

What was your original trouble starting the car? Are the symptoms exactly the same or different when starting? Did the old battery last just as long i.e. 6 hours before apparently failing?
Click to expand...


almost exactly the same symptoms tbh and iirc the battery lasted a similar amount of time, however, this new battery does it somewhat intermittently, whereas the old battery did it all the time.

unfortunately i do not have the old battery and i am struggling to find where the cranking amps are stated on the new battery?


mat.
 
if i where you i would do a grounding kit.
Replace all ground (return) lines from alternator, engine and chassis.

It could be a poor negaive connection somewhere causing leakage
 
Doc said:
The battery voltage sounds fine. Its a 12 volt battery after all so should hold just over 12 volts when charged.
Click to expand...

12.4 volts for a car battery is not fully charged, it's actually less than 75%. A fully charged 12v lead acid battery will read closer to 13v.
 
I agree with Rob. 13 and a bit volts volts-ish when brimmed (rapidly falling to a nominal 12 volts or so for the bulk of the discharge curve). A 30mA load would take some considerable time to flatten a fully charged battery, I doubt that's the cause.

The problem may be you're taking out more than you're putting in. How many cranks does it take to start, and how long a run before you switch off again? The alternator only really alternates at a speed just above idle, if you spend most of your journey sat not moving in traffic with everything switched on (it's winter after all) you may not actually be putting anything back in at all.

Are you in ear shot of the car for the 6 hours? Is you alarm going off constantly and flattening it without your knowledge?
 
SCRUB THE TERMINALS CLEAN,apply a bit of vaseline, check the lead at the starter motor and the earthing strap, clean and tight? if so then get the battery tested with a prodder, even though new it could have a dodgy cell.
 
Rob said:
It would be if a fully discharged battery measured 0v. A fully discharged battery measures about 11.8v.
Click to expand...
I've had batteries reading around 9V that have still tried to turn a starter motor and they certainly weren't flat.

mat said:
almost exactly the same symptoms tbh and iirc the battery lasted a similar amount of time, however, this new battery does it somewhat intermittently, whereas the old battery did it all the time.

unfortunately i do not have the old battery and i am struggling to find where the cranking amps are stated on the new battery?

mat.
Click to expand...
If you were experiencing the same symptoms with the new battery as you are with the old one all be it not as frequently then the problem doesn't lie with the battery. As Adam (The Hole) said sounds like a grounding issue causing leakage. Also test the alternator, if it's faulty it could be drawing charge flattening the battery. But it sounds like more time out in the cold with the multimeter is required to isolate the problem.
 
Doc said:
As Adam (The Hole) said sounds like a grounding issue causing leakage. Also test the alternator, if it's faulty it could be drawing charge flattening the battery. But it sounds like more time out in the cold with the multimeter is required to isolate the problem.
Click to expand...

I don't follow what a 'grounding issue causing leakage' means, unless the +ve side is grounded that is, in which case you'd be looking for a fire extinguisher.

If the alternator wasn't charging there'd most likely be a light on the dash (be it due to an alternator fault or poor grounding), and there wouldn't be a 14.2v terminal voltage at the battery with the engine running.

Oh, and running a (car) battery to complete exhaustion (like to 9v or less) can permanent damage the battery. There are subtle chemistry changes in the design of standby / deep discharge / heavy current cells.
 
Doc said:
I've had batteries reading around 9V that have still tried to turn a starter motor and they certainly weren't flat.
Click to expand...

They weren't flat, they were dead.
If it was reading 9v you only had five out of six cells operating and the battery was knackered. It may have tried to turn the starter, but it sure didn't start the car.
The definition of a flat lead acid battery isn't what it can do, its how much voltage it has left.
A 12v lead acid battery is classed as fully discharged when the voltage lowers to 11.89v.
 
Matt said:
I agree with Rob. 13 and a bit volts volts-ish when brimmed (rapidly falling to a nominal 12 volts or so for the bulk of the discharge curve). A 30mA load would take some considerable time to flatten a fully charged battery, I doubt that's the cause.

The problem may be you're taking out more than you're putting in. How many cranks does it take to start, and how long a run before you switch off again? The alternator only really alternates at a speed just above idle, if you spend most of your journey sat not moving in traffic with everything switched on (it's winter after all) you may not actually be putting anything back in at all.

Are you in ear shot of the car for the 6 hours? Is you alarm going off constantly and flattening it without your knowledge?
Click to expand...


thanks for all the comments, given me a few things to check, you kinda get one go at the moment and it either starts or it doesn't, sometimes you can tell it's a little weak but it still starts, or it doesn't start at all.

my drive to work is 25+ minutes on the motorway, then a 12 hour shift and the battery is dead. at home i only leave it about 6 hours between drives and the drives are only about 10 mins or so.

the low voltage on the check could be due to the fact it had been totally flat and then had a 20 minute drive before i collected the above figures.

will be checking the earths and cleaning them as soon as possible, difficult to get time when it's christmas!! - will keep you guys updated.

thanks again for all the help!!

mat.
 
battery on 10.4 volts this morning, current drain still at 0.03A at both + and - terminals, jumped it and took it out for an hour drive.

battery voltage with the car off after the drive: 12.61V

tried to start it straight away, car turned over once and then tried to turn over again, then did the rapid electrical clicking noise thing.

i have checked the glow plugs using the Voltage test method, all appear fine.

i'm running out of options, think it must be the battery.


mat.
 
mat said:
battery on 10.4 volts this morning, current drain still at 0.03A at both + and - terminals, jumped it and took it out for an hour drive.

battery voltage with the car off after the drive: 12.61V

tried to start it straight away, car turned over once and then tried to turn over again, then did the rapid electrical clicking noise thing.

battery voltage following a further jump start with engine running: 14.18 increasing to 14.31 when lightly revving the engine.

i have checked the glow plugs using the Voltage test method, all appear fine.

i'm running out of options, think it must be the battery.


mat.
Click to expand...
 
multimeter set up like this:

Photo0323.jpg


disconnected the negative terminal and then joined the multimeter in series, red to the cables, black to the terminal, also tried it on the positive.

i checked the drain with the engine off and doors closed (0.03A) then turned on the interior light ect. to check that the load increased, which it did (to 1.3A)


mat.
 
Matt said:
I don't follow what a 'grounding issue causing leakage' means, unless the +ve side is grounded that is, in which case you'd be looking for a fire extinguisher.

If the alternator wasn't charging there'd most likely be a light on the dash (be it due to an alternator fault or poor grounding), and there wouldn't be a 14.2v terminal voltage at the battery with the engine running.

Oh, and running a (car) battery to complete exhaustion (like to 9v or less) can permanent damage the battery. There are subtle chemistry changes in the design of standby / deep discharge / heavy current cells.
Click to expand...
Alternators, as well as having a electric motor in them to generate the charge when they are turning, also have a small circuit board in them to regulate the charge they are generating. On a previous car of mine because the alternator was a very compact design it used to burn out the circuitry about every 12 months. When it died it did one of 2 things: The 1st being it refused to charge the battery (what usually happens). The 2nd would be to crate a permanent open circuit in the alternator. This would still allow the alternator to produce charge when the engine was running, but when the engine was turned off the permanent open circuit would draw energy out the battery, known as leakage. So when I went out to it the following morning I'd find the voltmeter in the dash reading only 8 or 9 volts, the engine would turn but the battery was to flat to start the car. It never did any obvious damage to the battery at the time, as I always noticed the problem fairly quickly through driving it every day, and changing the alternator allowed the battery to charge back to 12V as normal, so it wasn't that flat for very long. But you're right having it drained that low even for a short period wouldn't have done it any favours long term.

The 2nd possibility is not very likely as most alternators just die and refuse to charge. But if you are encountering leakage and the cause is not obvious then it's something to look out for.
 
Doc said:
Alternators, as well as having a electric motor in them to generate the charge when they are turning, also have a small circuit board in them to regulate the charge they are generating. On a previous car of mine because the alternator was a very compact design it used to burn out the circuitry about every 12 months. When it died it did one of 2 things: The 1st being it refused to charge the battery (what usually happens). The 2nd would be to crate a permanent open circuit in the alternator. This would still allow the alternator to produce charge when the engine was running, but when the engine was turned off the permanent open circuit would draw energy out the battery, known as leakage. So when I went out to it the following morning I'd find the voltmeter in the dash reading only 8 or 9 volts, the engine would turn but the battery was to flat to start the car. It never did any obvious damage to the battery at the time, as I always noticed the problem fairly quickly through driving it every day, and changing the alternator allowed the battery to charge back to 12V as normal, so it wasn't that flat for very long. But you're right having it drained that low even for a short period wouldn't have done it any favours long term.

The 2nd possibility is not very likely as most alternators just die and refuse to charge. But if you are encountering leakage and the cause is not obvious then it's something to look out for.
Click to expand...


i am only encountering a 0.03A leakage from the battery with the engine off, i don't think the alternator is causing my problems as it charges the battery no problem and there is hardly any leakage when the car is off.

one thing i haven't checked (which i should have done really!) is the battery voltage between longer periods with the engine off - tonight when i get home i will check the battery voltage and will check it again the following morning to see if there is a difference.

the battery doesn't appear to fully drain though at all, the power bootlid, lights, alarm, stereo etc. all still work fine even though the car cannot be started.

the car is now not starting at all unless jumped - and won't jump (doesn't have the power) unless the other car (a 1 litre polo) has been attached for a couple of minutes and is being reved to about 2000 rpm!

new battery on wednesday, hopefully this will fix it! - got the use of my sisters DC5 for the time being though, so that's taking the edge off!!


mat.
 
well,

dropped the car off at honda for it to be checked out, turns out the new battery was duff.

new battery fitted, all is well.

on the plus side they told me that my exhaust manifold is cracked (in the usual place) and they'll fix it under warranty as soon as they get the part in.


mat.
 
Nice one Matt. I was suspicious about the battery, but thought if it was a new Honda one , it was very unlikely. At least it's sorted now. Good news about the manifold too.
 
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