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2004 2.2 CDTi Fueling Problem

H

Huxinyu1

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London
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Accord 2.2 CDTI 2004
Hi All


I'm a newbie to the forum but had been a honda enthusiat for many years, this being my 2nd honda deisel, all the rest were VTI petrols etc (the best! so damn reliable!)

Have had the above for over 5 years now, it's had its fair share of problems and have repaired as and when a problem popped up, I've not spared any expense;
  • Oil pump chain kit changed around 160k due to coming apart in oil sump
  • Timing chain changed about 150k due to rattling noise but found out it was oil pump chain (as above!)
  • Turbo replaced 170k due to bearing failure
  • Fan belt changed around 175k
  • Full service hisory
I bought the car at 140k, it now has just over 180k. It was off the road for a year and in April I put it back on the road, gave it full service MOT, Tax etc.
It's always randomly popped up a check engine light which turns off on its own, used to happen more in the summer from my recollection but never caused any problems.
I did notice from probably around 150-160k miles when idling, every so often the engine would hiccup, a slight drop in revs and the idle normal again, the hiccup was literally for a second or so probabaly every 1-2 mins if idling, not sure if this has anything to do with problem I'm experiencing now.
Recently (within last month) the car has had problems starting, it would turn over as normal, start and immediatly shut down, attempting to crank it again would start the car and it would run fine although a few days ago it was much worse and had to crank about 6 times to get it running.
Driving back from work (20 min drive max) I stopped off at tesco to buy some beer, when I attempted to start it agian it just kept cranking and wouldn't start at all, I towed it home and attempted it the next day and tried numerous times since but nothing at all.
I tried a new battery, including jumpstarting so defo know there's enough power to get it up.
I done the return valve fuel rail test which had no fuel come back from the return hose so ruled out the fuel rail was faulty.
I followed this post http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/722-intake-manifold-and-egr-cleaning-on-i-ctdi/ to clean out the EGR which was REALLY sooted up hoping this was the fault but this didn't make a difference.
I bled the fuel lines to make sure fuel was going into the injectors, all 4 were OK.
My mechanic next door spent 2 hours on it, he checked all the fuses which were OK and told me bleeding fuel lines wasn't a reliable test and was convinced it was a fuel problem.
He tested and traced the problem back to the pump, he disonnected the fuel line at the pump and we turned it over and nothing was coming out, only when we manually pumed the primer. He said it's most probably the pump or a sensor issue but wouldn't know until the pump was changed, he recommended doing some research.
It fired up on easy start after cranking for like 10 times but turned off straight away, lots of gray/blue smoke so was jun burning off the easy start.
Connected OBDII scanner and got;
  • P1057
  • P0201
  • P1058
  • P1065
  • P0340
  • P2004
Cleared all codes and cranked it again, P1058 was always present and P1057 coming up every so often, the rest disappeared.
I really don't hope it's the fuel pump as it's not worth repairing and I'd hate to sell for scrap/repairs, speiclaly considering I spent around 800 putting it on the road a few months ago. I was hoping it was going to be something small and simple like the crankshaft sensor or fuel rail but everything is pointing towards the pump. Googled it but can't see any similar symptoms and no posts about fuel pump problems.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you in advance!
 
It's almost certainly the fuel pump pressure regulator solenoid, which is the removable part (3 torx screws) fitted to the fuel pump and has an electrical connection (is next to air box). Easy to replace and can be got from Bosch for about £100.

Use the TA search facility (set to forums) to find my thread "fuel pump solenoid removal" which has a bit more info on this. I'd put a link if I could, but I have a problem with my account!

Welcome to TypeAccord.
 
Have your injectors tested too
 
P1057 indicates no electrical circuit through the regulator solenoid, while P1058 indicates it's shorted to ground.

I suppose it could be a bad connection or a wiring loom fault, so do use a meter to check the circuitry before splashing out £100. If you remove the solenoid electrical connector then you should be able to measure the resistance of the solenoid winding, which should be around 5 to 15 ohms, and no circuit to chassis... I think it's probably burnt out and the loose ends shorting to the case?
 
Hi Jon

Thanks for your swift reply! I'll have to pop in to screwfix and get a multimeter, mechanic was testing with a 12v home electrical tester yeterday as that was all he had.
I'll try and update tomorrow.

Hi F6HAD

If there was an injector leak would that not be visable? Also I'm very weary of removing any injectors for the simple fact of any possible damage, I know these are prone to snapping or spinning off after a certain mileage and seeing as though mine has done quite a bit I don't want to mess around.
I remember when my timing chain was replaced the mechanic who done so said it was a nightmare taking one out and to this day I'm not sure if he even managed to get it out and even replaced the timing chain.
He had to soak it in for days and heat it up etc, it was a while ago and can't remember but am not sure if he said it span off but I know there was a problem, when I first got the car back, 10 mins down the road the injector started leaking and it sounded ilke a tractor, I took it back and the next day he repaired it, apparently tightening it...

Anyway I'll test solenoid tonight with multimeter and report back to you in due corse.

Again thank you guys for your quick and useful comments.
 
There are two flow paths through each injectors, the 'obvious' one that supplies fuel to the engine for combustion, plus another path that lubricates the injector internals... both are fed from the single connection to the fuel rail, but the internal lubrication routes exit each injector along a flexible pipe that all join up and return this fuel used to lubricate the injectors back to the fuel tank (the fuel rail over-pressure valve also connects to this return feed)... this is known as injector leak-back (or sometimes leak off).

Sometimes the injector leak-back becomes excessive, which then makes it tough for the fuel pump to be able to pressurise the fuel rail sufficiently during cranking (200 bar minimum) resulting it the ECU not operating the injectors, therefore the engine will take a long time to start (or may not start at all, unless easy-start is used). It is fairly easy to test injector leak-back by removing the four return connections from the return path and - using some plastic tubing and 4 containers - diverting the individual return flows into the containers and measuring how much fuel is being passed by each injector during cranking. You don't actually remove the injectors to do this... vid clips of this on YouTube. An experienced diesel mechanic should be familiar with doing this, it isn't just a Honda thing.

But, if it was just an injector leak-back problem you have, then the engine would have probably have kept running after being fired up with the easy-start. And you would have been able to see the pump producing significant flow output while being cranked.

If you don't want to spend £100 on a new solenoid then maybe try a scrappy? The solenoids don't fail very often, so a second-hand one would almost certainly be OK.
 
Hi Jon

£100 is pretty reasonable considering the amount I've spend on the car to date and would be happy paying that if it meant getting it up and running.
I've seen this link which is even cheaper, not contacted them though and don't know if it's new or not; http://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/bosch-694498.html
Yes, the mechanic did use a tube to test the injectors indiviually yesterday but nothing at all came up due to the pump not sending fuel through in any case and I agree that it would have kept on running if it fired up on easy start so it's obviously not an injector fault for the time being.
If the multimeter test comes back fine with the solenoid, do you have any idea of what else it could be? Possibly the actual fuel pump being faulty?
I've never heard anyone have a complete bosch unit fail in any car let alone in a 2.2 cdti, it's usually just the seals or components around it that go as they're so well engineered and quality items. My Merc E300 TD had a leak and it was just the o rings that needed to be changed, I've just had the worst luck with cars in the past few months and I'm starting to wonder whether I should just get rid of these big turbo deisels and just get a cheap small engined japanese hatch back!

Kind regards
 
A worn pump would still produce some output, although if the pump drive shaft has sheared (which has been reported) then there would be a complete lack of output... BUT those codes you keep getting point directly to an electrical fault with the pressure regulator solenoid (or just maybe its ***ociated connectors/wiring loom or even the related output circuitry on the ECU, but this is very unlikely), not a mechanical problem with the pump.

That's a very good price for that part.
 
I know! It's even brand new + 3% discount by using code LVT9129, only problem being that the part is sent from Germany and takes around 3-5 working days (if item is in stock, of which it is currently) and returns also have to be sent back to Germany.
OK, well I'm crossing my fingers hoping that it is this part, will let you know!
Thanks again!
 
I'm guessing you've not been able to use a multimeter to confirm, but I really do think the solenoid winding being burnt out (and possibly then shorting to the case) is far more likely than a wiring or connector problem (or ECU fault).

Either way, please do let us know.
 
Hey Jon

I don't have a clue about multimeters but after a quick youtube tutorial attempted! I still wasn't 100% sure so got my mechanic to try, he also isn't so good with them but much better than me! We probed the 2 cables and with cable disconnected from solenoid we were getting about 13ish, we connected the solenoid and was getting around 15, prob close to 16. After about 5-10 mins with the ignition on (we never attempted to start the car) we tried again and almost burnt ourselves as the solenoid was very hot! Is this normal? We didn't even turn the car over just had the ignition on for 10 mins. I'm guessing it should get so hot like that even with turning the car over. I'm guessing I should go ahead and order it as this seems suspicious!
 
So your solenoid was reading 15 or 16 ohms then... in my old thread I linked for you above I said mine was 3 ohm when it was working, so yours is a fair bit higher - but not actually burnt out (or you wouldn't be able to measure any resistance) but maybe it's also become shorted to the case... did you measure resistance from the pins to the metalwork? I don't think there should be any reading at all from either pin to the case, bit I'm not 100% sure... if you need me to check I still have my old unit and I can measure this tomorrow if you need (I've just finished mowing and I'm far too knackered to go back outside this evening!). It will actually get quite warm, so that doesn't indicate a problem.

When mine failed it was because the solenoid windings (an electro-magnet) had partially shorted together and the resistance had gone down to 1.3 ohms, therefore it was drawing far too much current from the ECU (I got a P1059 code). Been OK for about 18 months after replacing that solenoid pressure regulator unit.
 
Hi Jon

We only measured the ohms by probing the wires just before they go into the actual connector. We did attempt to initially measure the pins but it's far too thin and my multimeter *****s/pens (whatever you call them!) are too thick to slip in between the plastic casing to get to the pins inside.
I've ordered it anyway, if it doesn't solve the problem, I can always return it, just means losing out about £18 for shipping.
 
Hi,

Just an update, hopefully this means something to you!
I went out and tested everything again to be on the safe side, all of these tests were done with ignition on, with the cable disconnected from the solenoid and probing the cables just before they go into the plastic jack I got the following;

  • -1 on 200 Multimeter setting
  • 748 on 2,000 Multimeter setting
  • 13.48 on 20,000 Multimeter setting
  • 142.3 on 200,000 Multimeter setting

With cable connected to solenoid readings were near almost identical, the only one that differed slightly was the 20,000 setting which was 12.29 with cable connected as apposed to 13.48 when disconnected.
Continuity setting I had 1251 disconnected and 634 connected

Do these numbers mean anything to you?

Regards
 
Not really, as I'm not sure what units these measurements are... ohms, volts or amps. The most important measurement would be the resistance (ohms) of the solenoid itself, with the connector removed, and also the resistance of each pin to the metal case. You said before that the meter probes were too big to insert into the solenoid pins - if your meter has croc clips then use a couple of paperclips to make smaller probes.
 
They were all in Ohms.

Oh right, but where is the solenoid getting current from if the cable isn't connected to it? Sorry if I'm being daft but if I disconnect the cable from the solenoid I can't see how the solenoid is being powered....
 
I understand the solenoid having a resistance of 3.6 ohms (which is probably about right), but I don't understand exactly what you mean by continuity in the sense of it being a separate measurement (003 ohms? between what points?).

Did you also check the resistance of each pin to the metal case? I'm wondering if this is now the real problem, seeing as how the solenoid resistance seems to be about right.
 
Sorry, I'm trying here...but when it comes to electrics I really struggle!
I touched the 2 pins on the solenoid with my 2 multimeter pens, that's how I got the 3.6, I done exactly the same with the continuity test, just switched the multimeter to the continuity setting, while my 2 multimeter pens were in the exact same place, is this not how it works? :S
Well I already ordered the solenoid, I'll return it if doesn't solve the problem.
 
I'm not understanding exactly how your meter works!

How about measuring from one of the pins to the solenoid case, just using the same multimeter setting that gave an answer of 3.6 ohms for the resistance between the 2 pins... then we'd know if the solenoid windings had internally shorted to the case.

But yes, the bottom line is that you've got a replacement on order! So probably best not to waste any more time ****ysing the problem any further until we have to (which hopefully we won't!).
 
Hey Jon

I'll try that when I get home this evening but either way I'll wait until the part arrives and not waste anymore of your time, I'm sure I`ve tried your patience!
Thanks alot for all your help and will update you once solenoid has been swapped out
 
Hi All

Just to let you know that 2 days after ordering the part, even though I contacted the supplier before hand to ask if the part was in stock, I was told there were none available and it may be in within a week or 2. I told them to cancel the order and contaced Watson Deisel (Ian) in Wimbledon of who I highly respect and used before, he is extremely knowledgable, particularly with Bosch items.
He initially wondered why I needed the solenoid and recommended I open the pump which just required undoing the 4 small torx screws and checking the propshaft which is a very small blade/notch that petrudes from the pump when the mentioned section is removed, Ian informed me that these CP3 units sometimes have this problem and this blade/notch snaps off within the pump.
Anyway, after removing part of the pump and inspecting it all was well, calling Ian back he told me to change the fuel filter (to my knowledge I've never changed it since ownership and am unsure it has ever been throughout the services), he said I was asking for trouble! I explained that when I used the manual prime pump, fuel would squirt out of the pump when the fuel line was removed, I ***umed the filter was fine because of this and even took the filter off to check the feed was flowing which it was. He told me that regardless of this it needs to be changed, only then should I continue diagnostics.
An hour or so later, everything put back together, if fired up!!! So I've learnt not to tamper with the more complex things without first checking the most simple!
ALTHOUGH!!! It now seems to be in limp mode.....I was hoping it would actually run better than before considering I cleaned out the egr and part of the manifold, any ideas? :(
 
Unfortunately, the P1057 and P1058 codes you mentioned in post #1 do only relate to faults with the regulator solenoid (see my post #5)... I suggest that fiddling about in the area of the pump has merely caused an intermittent fault to go away.

Your problems weren't typical of a fuel filter issue (P1065 and P0087). But I'm glad it's currently working nearly OK... you need to get the fault codes read again to see what the remaining problem is, but I'm worried the solenoid will again play up and cause a shutdown situation again.'

If you read some of my old threads on the subject, you'll see that I originally thought I'd fixed my car but then the problem came back until I replaced the regulator. But I honestly hope I'm wrong!
 
Right, Engine light no longer on, found a hose that was disconnected which I reconnected but still the same, connected ODBII and got P1401, 0113, 1057, 1058.
Going to look up the now but 57 & 58 haven't gone away obviously...........
 
P1401 = Insufficient EGR flow... possibly 'just one of those things' that needs attention, but is unrelated?
P0113 = IAT sensor failure... maybe from when you disconnected the MAF?

Interesting to see which DTCs return after being cleared.
 
Well.....................after clearing them and triple checking all hoses and cables etc I noticed I used 2 gaskets on one of the EGR manifold joints, I corrected this and tightened everything back but made no difference.
Right, code wise there isn't a problem at all with the car, no engine light, no codes, nothing. I think I will wait for my cousin to drive it to work and back this evening (about 10 mile round trip if that) and see if anything comes up then.
I think the codes were there from last time to be honest and weren't cleared until now.
Not sure what it could be........
 
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