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Head Gasket Selection

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chesjak

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south coast
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Accord I-ctdi
Can anyone tell me how to determine what thickness head gasket is on the engine before I take it off. I want to get all the parts ready before I renew the valve stem guides on my N22a1 engine.
When I start up in the mornings a small amount of blue smoke drifts out of the exhaust for about a couple of seconds. I say drifts because it doesn't blow out hard.
Also, about every other day I rev up to about 3.5>4 thousand and I blow a lot and I mean a lot of black smoke out for about 3 seconds. After that it is OK.

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards
 
Why wouldn't you just make sure you order the correct part from honda or other source
 
Are you sure it is the guides and not just the valve stem seals? If not, it might be a hell of a lot cheaper to do that first and potentially save you from removing the head.

We had a conversation about changing the seals, without removing the head, in June last year. That was a Dtec, but the procedure isn't much different. (link to topic)
 
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Richard B said:
Are you sure it is the guides and not just the valve stem seals? If not, it might be a hell of a lot cheaper to do that first and potentially save you from removing the head.

We had a conversation about changing the seals, without removing the head, in June last year. That was a Dtec, but the procedure isn't much different. (link to topic)
Click to expand...
Hi Richard B
Sorry - didn't realise I had typed guides. I did mean seals.
Can I replace them without removing the head then - I wasn't aware of that.
Certainly would be cheaper and quicker wouldn't it.
I'll have a look at the link you have included - thanks
 
So does anyone know if and how it is possible to determine the thickness/ correct head gasket before taking it off.
I understand that it can be any of 5 different ones.
Many thanks
 
chesjak said:
Hi Richard B
Sorry - didn't realise I had typed guides. I did mean seals.
Can I replace them without removing the head then - I wasn't aware of that.
Certainly would be cheaper and quicker wouldn't it.
I'll have a look at the link you have included - thanks
Click to expand...
If you have any questions, if something is not clear, I will try clarify.
But yes, it it totally possible to do this without removing the head.

To stop the valves from dropping down when you remove the spring and retainers, you need to rotate the cylinder to low, insert a length of clean rope into the cylinder via the injector or glow plug hole, then rotate the crank so the piston pushes the ropes against the valves to stop them from dropping down. Swap out the seal and squash the spring again and place the cap and retainer bits back before unloading the valve again.

You will have to drill 2 holes through a couple of spanner just large enough to push down on the valve cap to free the retainer bits. Both Howlinator and I used a magnet to pull the retainer halves off the slot in the valve stem. You use nuts on the cam studs to press the spanner down. It takes a bit of force. But whatever contraption you come up with - whatever works. Some sort of well placed lever wedged into a spot in the engine bay maybe. It takes a bit of force to push the spring but it only needs to move a few mm.

Howlinator may have taken some photos which may help.

And yes, I thought you were going going to have the guides machined out and replaced. Leaving the head in place you won't have to remove any of the manifolds and all that jazz.

I'll log in every day from now to see if you have any questions.
 
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chesjak said:
So does anyone know if and how it is possible to determine the thickness/ correct head gasket before taking it off.
I understand that it can be any of 5 different ones.
Many thanks
Click to expand...
Unless something has changed in engine building, thicker headgaskets are usually used in engines that have been rebuilt and have had the head surface machined / skimmed. This is to retain stock compression. Compression would rise otherwise.
 
FWIW you can make a valve spring compressor quite easily with some scrap metal, this is what I made to replace valve stem seals on my K20 cylinder head.
y7EZRUV.jpeg
 
This is good work! I like how you can do all the valves in that cylinder from one bolt down position.

How did you get the retainer clips on and off? Is there an access hole out of view?
 
Impact socket on the retainer and a tap with a hammer makes them pop right out. There's also a cutout towards the spark plug tube just big enough to get a finger in and hold the cotters in place.
 
Richard B
I had a chat with a Honda garage parts guy the other day who was very helpful and he spoke with his mechanics. He says that given how small the difference between the 5 head gasket thicknesses, it would be ok to use the 1.5mm gasket in place of a thiner one. In fact they recommended it!!

I have just gone and had a look at the engine on the car and it would appear that the gasket on the car has just one notch on it thus being the thinest 1.3mm thick gasket.
There is only .2mm difference between thick and thin (hardly anything) so should I trust him???

The info on using rope seems a good short cut but how reliable is it. Sod's law dictates for me that it would not compress enough and I would loose the valve!!
 
There is actually very little room left in a cylinder at TDC. The piston gets about flush with the top of the block, and the combustion chamber is just the space inside the head and whatever shape the top of the piston is. When I did it I couldn't turn the motor anywhere near TDC as there was about so much of rope in there (that engine was petrol so the spark plug hole fitted a larger rope). I just used a clean white cotton rope that didn't fluff. I learned the trick from an older guy I talked to just by chance, and I think it was quite a common practice in the past. BTW I think that if you drop a valve in an "interference" engine at TDC it doesn't drop very far down and a small hose on a vacuum cleaner positioned on the guide would probably suck the valve stem back up if it sat too far down to grab.

Changing the seals made a huge difference. All the smoke disappeared. But it was a brand (Mitsubishi) that was famous for its crappy valve stem seals.

If you remove the head and use a wrap-around valve spring compressor tool, you can also really clean out the inlet ports. Do not mix up the valves though.
 
Does anyone know the torque settings for the head bolts??

Getting a bit desparate now. Cant find it anywhere
 
Hi mlkehunt
Thank you greatly for the .pdf it is going to help imensely when I do the job next week.
Couple of questions if I may.

“”After torqueing If using a new cylinder head bolt, tighten at 110 ° on the first step, at 100 ° on the second and third steps””

Not sure what this means. Are you able to explain?
Don’t I just tighten to Specified Torque: 49 N·m and that is it then?

Also these instructions look like part of a very useful manual. Am I able to get hold of it. I can't find one anywhere. I found a few pages online when I replaced the hydraulic tappets but that was as far as it went.

Many thanks again
Best regards
 
these head bolts are reusable(if within spec), and you torque them to angle rather than torque to yield which stretches the bolt and typically instructions for these would give you a specific torque target for all steps rather than torque + angle
so you would torque these to 49nm, then start back at your first bolt, turn all the bolts 110 degrees, then back to your first bolt for an additional 100 degrees of turn angle on all the bolts

the pdf is a printout from the 7th gen electronic service manual, I haven't been able to get it to work on win10 but I hear it's possible. I use a virtual machine with win7 and internet explorer instead.

esm.zip - Rapidshare

Download file - esm.zip
rapidshare.io rapidshare.io
 
Thanks for that mikehunt.
I just couldn't believe that when I saw it. That is very tight. Still as long as the gasket doesn't leak that's all that matters isn't it.

I will try the download when I et back Monday - many thanks
Have a good weekend
 
chesjak said:
Thanks for that mikehunt.
I just couldn't believe that when I saw it. That is very tight. Still as long as the gasket doesn't leak that's all that matters isn't it.

I will try the download when I et back Monday - many thanks
Have a good weekend
Click to expand...
thanks, and good luck :)
 
Mikehunt
I at last got round to doing the car and yesterday started to tighten the head bolts. Torqued up as required and then started the angle tightening. I just managed to tighten the first 110 degrees and honestly it took all my strength. The way I see it there is no way am I going the do the next 2 x 100 degree turns. I think I will either end up snapping the bolts or stripping the threads on the block or bolts. That's if I could physically do it and I am not what ou might call that weak.
Have you actually done this job and if so how tough was it with your bolts.
Seriously I honestly think I will do some damage.
I am considering trying to tighten as much as I can and leaving it at that, because it is very tight even now.

Anyone else had the same problem

Regards
 
I have not had to do this particular job, but this kind of tightening torque is not unheard of, but you may need a longer breaker bar for the angle steps
you using new or used bolts? I see that you say 110 degrees of angle but better to double check than not, even though the angle difference is only 40 degrees
honda clearly states that if the bolt is within spec(in excess of 12.5mm thickness), it should withstand 49nm and 3 quarter turns, and for a new unstretched bolt, 49nm and 310 degrees

I believe in you!
 
""I believe in you!""
Thanks - not many people do!!
Seriously- where did you get that info. withstand 310degrees?? I prey you are right.
The 110>100>100 degrees is apparently correct and I think I might need a full length scaffold pole to achieve the tightening!!

The gasket I am using is an Ajusa and they have admitted that the proceedure they have printed on the paper that comes with the gasket is wrong. When questioned about it they supplied another set of instructions which were also wrong. If I have to do this job again it will not be with an Ajusa head gasket for sure??

I have let it stand for a day with the 49n-m and 110 degree carried out so I will give the rest of it a go now.

Thanks for help and will let you know how I get on.
Regards
 
straight from the electronic service manual, I guess it gets a little confusing because they've split the tightening instructions into two, with step 1 being torques across all 10 bolts in order, step 2 only being angle tightening but then there's 3 steps for angles, and in total you're doing 40 steps lol

good luck
 
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