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Hot Starting / poss. Fuel Filter related headaches! inc. Engine Cut-Out

K

Kyash

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Location
Stoke-on-Trent
Car
Accord 2.2 ctdi 2004
Hi All,

First time posting (on any site!) so please... be gentle... :blush: This is a bit lengthy but I want to cover everything.

Ok from the beginning - I have a '54 Accord 2.2 ctdi and it's been great so far. Done 125k miles and I was running it for about 18 months using a Pro-Bitz eBay special Mod Box

Since last Winter it's been getting progressively worse starting until one day wouldn't start at all. Battery got changed and everthing was fine for a while. I removed Pro-bitz box as precaution.

Beginning of Summer it was getting worse.
Crank 2-3 times in the morning -> start.
Afternoon maybe 5-8 times -> start.
After a long drive (I work 90 miles away) I would leave it around 15 mins and crank 20 times, most times take 2 or 3 attempts. A couple of times refused to start after 5 - 6 attempts.

Came to a scary head when accelerating hard in 3rd gear on Dual Carriageway: got to 3000 rpm and engine coughed, spluttered and died :eek: EML on - Glow Plug light flashing... managed to coast off slip road during rush hour, engine off, waited a minute and then engine started again

EML stayed on for around 20 mins then went. Put a borrowed code reader to it and got P1065 - Manufacturer Control, P0087 - Fuel Rail / System Pressure too Low, P16A4 - Manufacturer Control.

Obviously big problem so took it to local garage who reckoned I needed filter changing. Generic £15 filter fitted :blush: . They asked if I wanted an additive adding straight to the filter which they use to help cars pass MOT emmissions - I though why not? Started no prob at the garage - happy days! Thought I'd treat her to full tank of VPower as well.

Took it to parent's house and then after half an hour point blank refused to start! :angry: Rang garage and they suggested I bleed the injectors so slackened one-by-one while someone was cranking and got it going.

Did some serious digging online and found this site and thought I realised error of my filter buying ways... ordered genuine Bosch / Honda 16901S6FE02 Filter from local Holdcroft through eBay (£32 vs. 45 - one of the workshop guys even delivered it my door! seller ID 2006holdcroft). This arrived last Thursday and I fitted myself following one of the guides on here (although I cheated a bit by not taking Air box / throttle ***embly off, removed one blot from left side and slacked all the other bolts I could see on the bracket - and then loosened the rear bolt after tilting the whole bracket forward).

Ok, so after 2 or 3 rounds of bleeding air and priming it started a dream! Since then no problems until yesterday - same thing with hot start at Hilton Park services. Got home and bled the filter again (bit of air came out), started great again. Today again no prob in the morning, complete nightmare when I stopped at some shops on the way home - as bad as it was before took 3 attempts to start! This time I got home and slackened the injector side while someone cranked, didn't notice much air coming out though. Now it starts OK.

Please please help! Wife is 7 months pregnant and I'm losing sleep thinking about this happening when she's in labour!!!! :eek: I'm not in position to trade it in yet and otherwise love the Accord...

I think it's an air-in-the-fuel-line problem but can't think where to start looking. Checked all the hoses and connections I could see and they all seem sound.

Could it be EGR? I want to give it a good clean anyway - can anyone suggest a good cleaner?

Shall I just carry on bleeding the air?

What should be my next step?

Kash
 
Welcome to the Forum Kash. Sound like it could be an EGR issue, but I'm sure some of the diesel experts will be along shortly to advise.
 
Do you get the P1065 and P0087 DTCs coming back? Those both point to low fuel rail pressure (P1065 = 'pressure lower than expected') and are usually characteristic of a restricted fuel filter.

For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing in fitting the proper Honda filter... the aftermarket one would have probably caused problems eventually, if not immediately. And you have now ruled out the filter as the main starting problem.

Starting problems (especially when hot) on these engines are often caused by either excessive injector leak back/leak off flow, or the fuel rail over-pressure regulator valve leaking. In both these fault conditions the fuel pump is unable to pressurise the fuel rail sufficiently at cranking speed because there is excessive fuel leaking back to the fuel tank (the rail has to reach 200bar during cranking before the ECU will enable the injectors).

It is a fairly easy DIY to substitute plastic tubing to the fuel tank return paths on all 4 injectors and the relief valve to monitor the flow rates into clear plastic bottles... all 4 injectors should return similar amounts - the one(s) that have a much higher flow than the others need replacing - and there should be zero flow from the relief valve (which can be easily replaced using a Bosch part).

If I was able to post links I would point you towards the TA threads discussing these issues. Unfortunately I can't (there is a serious unresolved problem on this website for some Microsoft users), so you'll have to use our search facility!
 
Thanks for replying so quick Jon - I was having a look at the pressure relief valve in the other posts and think that might be next step ... not sure if http://www.civinfo.com/forum/how/111264-how-diagnose-replace-faulty-over-pressure-relief-valve-2006-2-2-ctdi.html is the same as my engine for the pressure relief valve.

Any idea what the part number of the valve would be and where I can get it if I need to? The post that I've linked above is not clear.

Little concerned about breaking the relief valve / bolt but I'm gonna try and give the check a go at the weekend if I can wait that long!

gtg for now but will sure to check forum again tomorrow!

(Oh yeah the codes hadn't come back again as of yesterday - given code reader back now - and revved happily over 3000 RPM in third again - feels little bit hesitant but might be my imagination!!)
 
Hi mate, it's possible you've caused some damage to the high pressure pump and/or injectors by using a tuning box.

They make power by altering the signal to the fuel pump and causing it to work a lot harder and make the engine run hotter than normal.

Where are you located? Ideally it needs someone with a Honda system to run some diagnostics.

I offer a service if you can get to Halifax.

It could be something simple like air but unlikely if it's been running ok, or could be bad injectors or even sticking egr.

Try temporarily blanking the egr. It will cause an error but you will know if it starts up ok.
 
That Civinfo thread is a very good source of information (there is a parallel TA thread which links to that one, btw)... exactly the same way to test as on the Accord because the engines have only very minor differences. I'm not sure if the part number for the relief valve is the same, but a Bosch service centre/agent would be able to supply the correct one (Honda don't sell them though, they make you buy the entire fuel rail!).

There's no need to undo the relief valve when testing it... you merely remove the existing flexible pipe from it (the return path to the fuel tank), plug that now dangling flexible pipe (to prevent the other returns from the injectors squirting out everywhere) and then check that the valve is not emitting any fuel whilst cranking. It really is quite simple and you find out very quickly if the valve needs replacing. If not, then perform the slightly more complex and messy injector leak back/leak off testing (there are videos of this on YouTube).

Have you got a code reader? If it gives real-time data then see if you can monitor the fuel rail pressure whilst cranking.
 
Bit of an update... accelerated on m6 to overtake and engine went to limp mode. Glow plug light flashing and smoke coming from engine on hard shoulder. Rac checked over and got me started again.. guessing I didn't do the injector pipe nuts tight enough after bleeding last night and one leaked all over the engine! Still got a load of diesel in some nooks and crannies.

don't want to risk any more problems so gonna call a diesel specialist when they open. I'll ask if they can check the injector leak back and the relief valve if they can see me today. .. do you think it might be worth getting Honda to have a look at it?

v depressed now.
 
Take the car to Holdcroft they are our Affiliated main dealer.
Talk to Lee or Gaz and tell them your from type Accord and say Brett sent you.
These guys will sort you out fella
 
While I certainly agree with Brett that Holdcroft Honda are excellent (and are practically on your doorstep), I'd be wary of taking the car to a Honda garage just in case it is that fuel rail pressure relief valve... Honda do not sell it as a separate item, so you might end up having to buy the complete fuel rail for well over £1k + Honda labour rates +VAT (probably more than the car is worth?).

At least discuss it with them up front, and maybe suggest that you supply that valve for them to fit if they discover it to be the problem.
 
Just dropped the car off at holdcroft.... had a long chat with the guy on the desk and they're going to diagnose the problem first for 50 quid. I'll let you know what comes out of it. Hopefully they won't be doing anything without asking me first!
 
£50 for diagnostic is very cheap.
 
Yes Kash, members of TA do get preferential rates on parts and (I believe?) garage services.

As Brett suggested, you should have mentioned that you were a TypeAccord member and name-dropped him. Nevertheless, they are giving you a very good deal on the diagnostics anyway!

At least one of the guys there is a TA member, so maybe they had already seen this thread?

Slightly off-topic but still relevant - I would advise anyone reading this thread never to loosen injector connections to 'bleed the system'... it isn't necessary (system is self-bleeding once the engine is turning) and they can be hard to make leak-free afterwards, as the pressure rises to 1600 bar. I believe that Honda replace these pipes if they ever have to undo one, but I have been lucky and not had to replace mine after removal.

Please keep us updated on progress.
 
Left the car with Holdcroft 9 o clock this morning. Hadn't heard anything so went ot pick it up around 6 PM and was told there was 'no fault found' which sounds like good news I guess! They claim to have checked injectors and pressure relief valve as well as diagnostics and all came back OK. Not sure if they're telling the truth as the car was in the exact spot where I left it - but I suppose I have to trust them! :unsure:

On the plus side they said there was no charge as they couldn't find anything! :) Might have helped that they knew my dad ~ up till a few weeks ago we had a little newsagents directly opposite for around 20 odd years. But I did name drop and mention the forum more than once :blush:

I'll give it another good run tomorrow on the way to work but might not have the nerve to take it over 3000 RPM! I'll see how it goes and still have it booked with a local diesel specialist for next tuesday just in case.

Fingers crossed!

Jon -> Only reason I slackened the injector pipes was I had the garage guy who changed the filter on the phone trying to help me start it... but in hindsight,yes - point taken. And I should've checked they were really tight.
 
It's possible they ran the diagnostics where you left it parked, nothing to be alarmed about.

Could be a one off and the air trapped in the system has now been expelled.

Fingers crossed it's solved, but please do not plug that box back into your car.
 
I'm actually disappointed that they didn't find the problem. I'm guessing that the problem could be intermittent?
 
I'm a bit disappointed and confused myself tbh. The problem is mostly intermittent in so far as its a lot worse after the car's been running a while.
Was a little rough starting this morning and didn't feel as smooth in the motorway this morning .. (maybe imagining it though).
if it's still being a pain to start then I'll give the egr a clean maybe.
will look for a obd scanner... what do you think of a bluetooth one? Was thinking of connecting to my phone for real time monitoring and logging.
 
Try blanking the egr temporarily. Egr operates when engine reaches temperature so could be that
 
Shouldn't the HDS operator have 'forced' the EGR valve while monitoring MAF to determine the EGR error?

Don't just clean the valve... make sure that it operates without sticking by applying battery voltage to the terminals while watching the valve open and close... TA member Jayok posted a great how-to video on doing this, so worth searching for.

If you have an Android phone, then the ELM327 Bluetooth OBD2 interface and the free Torque app would be very good value for money (lots of monitoring utilities with Torque Pro, but you have to pay for that). There's a wi-fi version if you have an Apple.
 
Really glad you mentioned the Elm327 as thats the one I just ordered! Should have it in a couple of days. Will search for the egr guide before attempting and diy.
 
Before trying to anything too dramatic with the EGR valve - I'm thinking about trying out a tin of BG244 .... any thoughts?
 
I'm not a fan... any 'improvement' will be temporary.

Try what Fahad said and blank it off first (use an old coke can and cut it to fit). You'll force the car into limp mode, but if it runs OK under the 2000RPM limit then you probably do have an EGR valve problem.
 
Most likely they ran a simple functional test which even on slow operating egr valves seems to give it a pass in my experience.

So it's possibly working enough to pass the test but slow enough to cause a sluggish running problem
 
Another update... big problems hot starting when stopped in Cannock on the way home (I live in Stoke and travel to Gaydon everyday).
3 rd attempt no joy, so popped hood primed the pump and finally got it going!

Not convinced the CTDI engine self-bleeds as I got home and bled the fuel pump again.

This is the procedure I follow, pretty much as per the manual:

1. Remove Engine Cover
2. Remove Primer Bulb cover
3. Scrape knuckles, swear and then remove the primer bulb from holder.
4. Remover bulb holder
5. All this to get access to the bleed screw on top of the filter - undo this about 10 mm up.
6. Squeeze primer bulb until fuel spurts out. Mop up.
7. Tighten the bleed screw and then run the car at 1500 RPM for 30 secs.
8. Check the bleed screw is tight and then re-attach everything as reverse of above (if the car starts ok, otherwise I bleed again).


I also checked as many pipes and connections that I could while under there.

The bit that bugs me is that when the injector pipe nut wsas loose and sprayed diesel everywhere, you'd think the system was well bled... i.e. no air left in. Now, if it took me around 5-6 pumps of the primer bulb to get fuel out of the filter bleed screw, that's quite a bit of air that must be entering the system somewhere since yesterday??

After bleeding and priming the car starts on the third or fourth crank. I'm not ruling out a leak on the injectors / pressure relief valve or clogged air intake / egr yet but this is really starting to get me down...

I've still got the car booked for tuesday's diesel specialist who seemed to know what he's talking about over the phone. The ODB adaptor will arrive soon and I might try a Hail Mary with BG244 anyway. I need some better tools to access the bolts holding the air intake anyway which I should be able to get at the weekend.

Fahad - Halifax is a trip and half at the moment but may have to do it if all else fails.
 
It's odd that air appears to be getting in. The only time I've heard of this happening is when the line from the tank to the filter had a pinhole, which let the fuel run back into the tank when the car was parked up for a while, resulting in a long cranking time when the car was next started up as the fuel had to be dragged up from the tank and the air passed through into the engine and expelled. But that example ran fine once started.

I ***ure you the system will self-bleed, as I once striped down my fuel pump and then started the engine afterwards without touching the rubber bulb. It just takes a bit of cranking to shift the air, which isn't the kindest thing for the starter motor. Air in the system should never be a problem once the engine is actually running.

Good luck with the diesel specialist!
 
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