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Hydrogen v electric

Not at this stage of the evolution of alternative technologies. We're at the "early adopters" phase, and "early adopters" of any technology are not interested in price (of the item itself, or of running the item), they buy for kudos and are prepared to take some risk, but not enough to lose face if the technology goes pear-shaped --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_adopter

The companies pushing that particular technology are also in a similar position, but they take in the overall picture before committing to it (so they'd do some ****ysis similar to, but 10,000 times more extensive than, my table in #28). So there is a synergy between the companies and the early adopters.

As sales of a technology increase, price starts to come down a bit, and then the "early majority" start to take it up --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle . They take it up because they have seen the "early adopters" using the technology and are now confident that it's a good idea.

It's not until the "late majority" get involved that price of the product and running costs start to become important. But, due to scale economies, both of those will have come down. Elon Musjk knows all this, that's how his Tesla brand is working. If you see and hear a Tesla in the flesh, it's a revelation. Although I could afford to buy one, to me the money is too important in investments at my advancing years. If I won a million n the lottery, I'd buy a Tesla straightaway.
 
bw, if you look at the bell curve in those links, the IC powered car fits. We're now at the tail-end of the IC powered car, and displacement technologies are on the front-end of a new overlapping curve.

My table in #28 is an attempt to see which displacement technology will be the one that comes out the winner in 4-wheel transport.
 
The car manufacturers will be interested in the late majority stage the most though. Costs of both would come down with economies of scale, but one will still be cheaper than the other.
 
The one that's in the lead now will be the one that stays in the lead. This is what happened with VHS tape, and Betamax fell away.

I suspect that Fuel Cell vehicles will never catch up with Rechargeable Battery vehicles. RB has stolen the lead basically because it didn't require a completely new infrastructure. The costs of RB will continue to fall as it all scales up. The infrastructure (electricity grid) will have to be improved too, but, it's already there so the infrastructure is a well-proven and safe system.

There may be a place for FC as storage in the power grid, although RB seems to be taking the position there too. The only other place for FC is in portable devices.
 
freddofrog said:
I've made a table that's an attempt to compare, in some kind of "system" fashion, power units based on Fuel Cell or Rechargeable Battery or Methanol or Petroleum.

FC = Fuel Cell
RB = Rechargeable Battery e.g. Li-ion

ME = Methanol
PE = Petroleum (Crude oil, from which petrol and diesel are refined)


The score in each row has a maximum of 10, except the last row, which has a maximum of 20 (because the infrastructure is the most important part).

The scores that I've given are obviously subjective, but they are relative to each other on each row.
The totals at the end suggest why alternative technologies are struggling to beat the Petroleum based technology, because the latter scores 83 out of 90.

-- FC RB ME PE

1. 07 03 10 10 - Lifetime of unit
2. 10 03 07 07 - Weight of unit
3. 10 03 10 10 - Replenish time
4. 10 05 10 10 - Range
5. 03 08 06 10 - Cost of production of unit
6. 02 10 06 08 - End-to-end energy efficiency
7. 03 10 05 08 - Cost of production of "fuel"
8. 04 20 08 20 - Cost of infrastructure

-- 49 62 62 83 - Total
Click to expand...
You forget methanol (not dissimilar to ethanol) can be used both as a primary fuel and as a fuel cell additive. It is an unfussy compound, burning in almost any environment and does not need the close tolerances of diesel or modern injection designs, a real throwback to how combustion engines came into being. Engine and transportation designs can evolve, disruptive innovation without revolution.

It can additionally be supplied direct from the pump forecourt with little modification, meaning the infrastructure of delivery is little worse than that of current fuel (though I would advise caution with the casual driver - gloves a neccessity). Everything already in place including the supply chain.

Lastly, it has a freezing point much lower than normal petrol and is - relatively - easily manufactured by almost anyone with access to a still, some rotting wood/plant material, a burner, access to electricity (or efficient solar cooker).
It will therefore have a place in the third world and sub-third areas, where the multinationals have so far feared to tread, places where Otto cycle engines often end up with no regard to what goes through them.
 
Channel Hopper said:
You forget methanol (not dissimilar to ethanol) can be used both as a primary fuel and as a fuel cell additive. It is an unfussy compound, burning in almost any environment and does not need the close tolerances of diesel or modern injection designs, a real throwback to how combustion engines came into being. Engine and transportation designs can evolve, disruptive innovation without revolution.

It can additionally be supplied direct from the pump forecourt with little modification, meaning the infrastructure of delivery is little worse than that of current fuel (though I would advise caution with the casual driver - gloves a neccessity). Everything already in place including the supply chain.

Lastly, it has a freezing point much lower than normal petrol and is - relatively - easily manufactured by almost anyone with access to a still, some rotting wood/plant material, a burner, access to electricity (or efficient solar cooker).
It will therefore have a place in the third world and sub-third areas, where the multinationals have so far feared to tread, places where Otto cycle engines often end up with no regard to what goes through them.
Click to expand...
I don't see where any of the above would make any difference in the table
 
freddofrog said:
I don't see where any of the above would make any difference in the table
Click to expand...
Methanol integration is not considered wthin the article, It is not only a half way fuel, but once production reaches the figures mentioned, and the true cost/benefit to the environment is realised, fuel cell technology will be put back in the box.

Those that have invested in the 'advanced' technologies mentioned will be the loudest detractors as it doesn't fit with their utopia.
 
Channel Hopper said:
Methanol integration is not considered wthin the article, It is not only a half way fuel, but once production reaches the figures mentioned, and the true cost/benefit to the environment is realised, fuel cell technology will be put back in the box.

Those that have invested in the 'advanced' technologies mentioned will be the loudest detractors as it doesn't fit with their utopia.
Click to expand...
this looks like your source material

sedona_journal_of_emergence.17252.jpg
 
Why does the battery need to go inside the nutshell to be charged up....power loss insulation? :p

Can the process be reversed so people can power their homes at night from their cars I wonder. Or from a lorry with a communal battery on the back.
 
Cliffordski said:
Why does the battery need to go inside the nutshell to be charged up....power loss insulation? :p

Can the process be reversed so people can power their homes at night from their cars I wonder. Or from a lorry with a communal battery on the back.
Click to expand...
On downhill sections or coming up to a junction/corner regenerative braking could presumably return power to the 'grid' once the on-board battery is fully charged?
 
Jon_G said:
On downhill sections or coming up to a junction/corner regenerative braking could presumably return power to the 'grid' once the on-board battery is fully charged?
Click to expand...
On larger vehicles perhaps, it has been tested on railways and on larger cargo ships fitted with regenerative electrics, reducing dynamic braking resistor requirements.

The use of the car engine as a domestic power supply is not new, it was part of the Nissan Leaf criteria (LeaftoHome)

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle_to_home.html
 
you could also fit a wind turbine to the roof of the car so that you make electricity as you drive along

seat-ibiza-aero-tonto.jpg
 
Jon_G said:
Perpetual motion!

Better turn it off before it destroys the universe...
Click to expand...
you were first to blink, so you get a free beer

it was an April Fool thing --> http://indianautosblog.com/2009/04/april-fools-special-seat-aero-tonto-windmill-in-car-technology

When, over 15 years ago, I first heard about the H2 economy I thought it was the answer, and I couldn't understand why there were so many detractors to it.

But these days I fully accept and understand that the infrastructure is the most important aspect to any 4-wheel personal transport system. As such, the electricity grid is the logical alternative to the existing pipework that only supports the Petroleum solution.
 
I developed perpetual motion years ago, I just choose to keep it to myself.

The massive bonus with EV is you can plug your chariot in when you get home. The range will improve but for me the short-medium term answer has to be hybrid.
 
one important point that's been missed .....what about countries that have a poor electricity grid ?

maybe that is where FC vehicles might have a place e.g. India ?
 
have no likes left people, its depends on what the government want to push we have technology there but fuel is bringing in billions in revenue.
 
freddofrog said:
they seem to be affirming what I've been saying

maybe make the H2 at home, fill up your Honda Clarity at home, and fix something like this to the roof to get you back home when the main tank runs empty

1940_110.jpg


6a00e0099229e88833014e87c5d7e6970d-500wi.jpg


532-1110.jpg
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I'll be honest, I'm not convinced it'll catch on..
 
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