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Problem starting hot and cold

Hi Fahad,

As I can't currently insert links on TA, I've sent you a PM over the Civinfo system which has a link to the Civinfo DIY diagnosis and repair for this particular fault. Hopefully this will reach you OK?

EDIT - just found that I can actually insert links into a TA PM, so done it through this system as well!
 
Hi guys, thanks for all the info I have garnered from this forum in the time I've had my 04 CDTi. I've since become a dab hand at changing fuel filters, I don't even think there was any blood last time!


Do you think I could pick your brains again? My Accord has been fantastic until recently when it became difficult to start showing the exact symptoms as the OP. Firstly is showed a crank pos sensor fault which was changed to no avail. Since it has had all injectors checked and found to be within tolerance so they were replaced and re-coded. The high pressure pump has been changed with a spare and still no joy. I spent an hour with my mechanic the other day going through the OBD readings, everything seems to be ok apart from the RPM reading is intermittent. When it is cranked it shows 0 RPM then spikes then reads zero again. Would this prevent it from starting? We changed the cam pos sensor but saw no change. Does the RPM reading come from either of these sensors and if it does, does that then point to a wiring fault from one of these? It starts straight away with easy start or on a hill and then runs fine. I will mention the over pressure to him on Monday but if someone could shed some light on the RPM issue it would be very much appreciated!

Thanks guys.
 
Logically, the RPM signal must originate from either the crank or cam position sensor, but I don't know which one! You say you've had both replaced though, so they shouldn't be a problem, unless - as you say - there is a wiring problem. If the wiring has become open-circuit due to a break somewhere, then you will be able to measure this at the sensor connection using an ohmmeter... if the wiring is broken then there will not be a measureable resistance back to the ECU.

Were the injectors actually tested for excessive leak-back? That is a common cause of non-starting.

Check that the rail pressure is achieving at least 200 bar during cranking. A decent OBD2 reader will let you measure this.
 
Rpm signal comes from the crank position sensor..
 
Jon_G said:
If you've read the whole thread, then you'll see I mentioned the fuel rail over-pressure relief valve leaking and preventing correct rail pressure being achieved during starting. This is a fairly common problem on the i-CTDi and is really easy to confirm. Replacement is also an easy DIY and you don't need to replace the whole rail, as Bosch (but not Honda) do sell the valve separately.
Click to expand...
I did and gave the garage the info.
They had sent it off to Honda, who had it for nearly two weeks and the best they could come up with is "we think its the rail", which is not terribly helpful.

So, I printed off the instructions from the link to the Civic forum and gave them to my garage - the problem is now solved :).
So thank you all.

I now have the problem of the alarm going off 'cos it thinks the tailgate is being opened.
Oh well, off to another thread.

I am SO pleased I found this forum. It has been a huge help over the last year - thanks again.
 
Thanks for letting us know.

Yes, it is a good forum, isn't it. Even the petrol Accord owners are reasonably decent. :p
 
Jon G, yes the injectors have been leak off tested and all seem to be OK. The OBD reader is a Snap-On Solus so it's not a cheap bit of kit and it shows that the reqd fuel rail pressure is 60 Mpa and it is showing above this constantly. That does seem to be high compared to the figure of 200 bar you quoted, isn't 60Mpa = 600bar?

Fahad, would the intermittent rpm signal stop it from starting then? It shows 0rpm then spikes, then shows 0rpm again. I will try to see what max rpm it is showing tomorrow.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Yes.... 1 bar = 100,000 Pascal (or 0.1MPa), so 60MPa would be 600 Bar. This compares well to the necessary minimum of 200 Bar, so I strongly doubt that you have a leaking rail over-pressure valve. Below 200 Bar and the ECU will not activate the injectors.

Did my earlier suggestion of how to check the crank/cam shaft sensor wiring make sense?
 
Jon, yes it does mate and I'll check it tomorrow. I'm just a bit worried about the fuel pressure reading, the reader had a required fuel pressure @ 60Mpa but it was reading 69, 73, 71 after a second of cranking. Why would it say it reqd 600bar to start when you say it only needs 200bar? It just seems a massive difference, where do you think the different values come from?

Thanks for replying Jon.

Dave.
 
While the engine might request a certain 'ideal' rail pressure (e.g. 600 bar) for a certain situation, it would still operate if this pressure was not achieved... however, if this situation persisted then the ECU would register a fault condition and DTCs would be recorded (i.e. P0087 and/or P1065). Nevertheless, there would have to be a certain minimum figure below which the ECU would not allow the engine to run and, during cranking, this figure is 200bar.
 
I think its normal for the spike to register via obd when it's cranking as the sensor is not getting a clean signal from the pickup..

Also if you had a crank related error you should see a DTC to be honest.

Have you eliminated all your injectors as possible cause?
 
Hi Fahad, sorry for the delay getting back to you. I've been down to the garage today and ran a few checks with the mechanic, his Snap On OBD reader came up with these readings:

It is showing P1384 Glowplug circuit fault. This has been checked and 1 glowplug is down.

Fuel pressure reqd = 60Mpa, Actual is constantly above this @ 69 to 73Mpa We also crimped the fuel rail over pressure valve pipe and no change. The injectors have all been leak back checked and sent to an injector specialist who said they were all within tolerance.

Voltage reading is 12.5v constant. This doesn't change when a booster set or running Transit is hooked up.

The car will start instantly with the tiniest sniff of ether and runs perfectly, no smoke or anything. Once the car is turned off it shows the crank pos sensor fault but this only shows after it has been running.

Getting back to the RPM readings: We cranked it over today (hooked up to booster) after it had been stood for a couple of days, there was no RPM showing on the OBD reader for 5 or 6 seconds, then it spiked at 83 and then zero for a few seconds then 140, same again then 117 and 109 and so on, (this is also backed up by the car's rev counter). Does this back up the crank sensor fault or is this normal? Does anyone know what the minimum starting RPM should be?

Thanks in advance lads.
 
Can you replace the glowplug (I would do all 4) and then run the tests again.. I've not seen this issue before on an Accord, and just wondering if a failing plug would cause it.
 
Just an update from me;

Elation now deflated;

Now on my third fuel rail (original replaced with used £90 Ebay buy, which then produced the same starting problems after a couple of thousand miles, then this was replaced with a used £60 Ebay buy, which is failing even sooner). Lucky it's a simple job to swap out!

I'm going to refer to the Civic forum link at the weekend to actually test the valve, but it seems like something else in the fuel system is destroying the pressure sensor once it's on the car.

If there's no problem showing with the pressure valve, I might start looking back at injectors again.

I really don't want to fit another rail and sell the car ..... I wouldn't be happy passing the problem on to somebody else! :-(

Cheers all
 
Back in post #20, Mick, you said that all your injector leak back results were uneven... this may suggest that more than one are excessive. I think your plan-of-action is a good one.

Sorry the problem returned!
 
One of the first things we did was check for leak-back, and they were uneven, but the garage that I use for non-DIY jobs refused to try and remove the injectors as they had come-a-cropper before with damage to the head because the injectors were seized in.
I believe that there are companies that can come to you to remove injectors for you ...... I'll have a google.

Just seems odd that replacing the rail seems to work for a while? ... I even tried just disconnecting the incomer to the rail at the weekend, just to release pressure, but no different.

AccordLeak-BackTest.jpg
 
Yeah, that is odd... maybe you have been really unlucky and the pressure relief valve on the 'new' rail has failed? At least that's easy to check.

Injectors are worse to remove when the seal has failed. As yours hasn't, then it may not be a big problem to remove them?
 
That's true - this is the 3rd rail though! (including the original), which is why changing just the pressure valve for one that is definitely not from the same batch may be a good idea!

Cheers
 
I'm not sure I understand... didn't each of the separately-bought replacement rails come with a pressure relief valve fitted (which would have therefore come from different batches)?

Easy to check the valve... nothing should be seen coming out of it when you remove the pipework that returns any output to the fuel tank (but do plug the loose pipework, as the injector leak backs will cause it to be slightly pressurised).
 
Hi guys, after a long delay I finally got around to changing the glow plugs. I didn't think this was the cause of it not starting but as Fahad says, you need to eliminate everything.

Does anyone know what the minimum starting RPM is for this engine as the reading on the OBD scanner is still spiking and then dropping to zero every couple of seconds. Has anyone got an OBD scanner they could put on their own car and see how the RPM reading behaves?

Thanks again, Dave.
 
Hi all, I've finally had a chance to carry out the pressure relief valve as detailed on the Civic forum


http://www.civinfo.com/forum/how/111264-how-diagnose-replace-faulty-over-pressure-relief-valve-2006-2-2-ctdi.html
The diesel pumped nicely into the jar, so ***ume a new pressure relief valve. However, the Ebay description that I have is HONDA RENAULT COMMON-RAIL PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE BOSCH PART NUMBER F00R001166, which links to http://www.dieselinjectorsuk.co.uk/ which I think is Andy Hewing as mentioned, but the part it describes sounds more like the plastic sensor at the other end of the fuel rail?
Can anybody confirm, or shall I call Andy Hewing?
Thanks
 
I'd discuss the correct part number with a Bosch supplier (maybe Hewings) just to make sure that your pre-facelift Accord (with an N22A1 engine) uses the same part number as that later Civic (with an N22A2 engine)... many of the fuel injection components do have different Bosch and Honda part numbers.

Bosch Service Centres/agents set their own pricing, so it may be worth shopping around. I saved a fair bit when I bought a part for the fuel pump a while back by doing this.
 
Car ran nicely with the new pressure valve, but starting heading back to its old tricks again fairly soon.
Could be injectors? fuel pump providing too much pressure? something is destroying the pressure reducing valve, and I've no idea what it is !!

I've cut my losses and moved it on 'with a fault' ... I just don't have the time.
Big shame. as it's always been lovely to drive, but I'm beaten by this problem, and it's just a money-pit now.

Thank you guys for all your suggestions on the way though.

It's petrol cars for me now :)
 
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