Problem starting hot and cold

Hi guys, my first post. I have a 2005 2.2i-cdti sport with 145000 on the clock and I've had it since new and its been a gem. Until last Saturday she had never left me by the side of the road, only drive shafts and the exhaust manifold have been changed since new. It started to take longer to start and within a few days I finally couldn't start her, called the RAC, decided to buy a new battery (the original one failed on their tester) and she started after a long crank. The new battery was only a temporary remedy, and pretty soon I resorted to the Easy Start, which is now the only way i can get her going. Just to point out, she runs absolutely fine once going, no flat spots, plenty of power etc. I changed the fuel filter as a precaution (still 5k to go on the old one) but no joy. Did a leak back test on the injectors and had one which was 25% over the others while idling (it took a few minutes to fill the bottle). Ordered up a reconditioned injector from GAP-Injectors and got my local Bosch service centre to fit and they found it to be duff (she still ran on three cylinders) so replaced the old one. I'll send the injector back. However, on their own leak back test they didn't think the rate of leak back would effect the common rail pressure enough to effect starting 'my injectors are fine'. Just to make sure the RAC battery was not the problem, I tried starting with a another (running) car's battery connected on jump leads - no difference. So -

Is it the starter motor - what crank rate should I expect? I get about 200 rpm according to the rev counter, and if I get anything above that she starts.
Is it the fuel pump - dread the cost of that- how do I check
Is it the injector - it leaks back but not signicantly

Any ideas of further tests I can run myself?

On the drivers side end of the fuel rail there is an over-pressure relief valve, which returns excess rail pressure back to the fuel tank as necessary. It is worth performing a similar test to the injector leak-back test to this fuel tank return, to make sure this valve isn't dribbling. Also try connecting a heavy duty jump lead from the battery negative terminal to something solid and conductive on the engine block (like a bolt or projection) to rule out a dodgy engine earth strap.

I will suggest that the problem here is that the fuel rail is failing to reach the minimum pressure necessary for the ECU to allow the injectors to open, which I believe to be 200 bar. Many OBD2 readers will give a real-time readout of fuel rail pressure (there's a sensor on the passenger side end of the fuel rail that informs the ECU) so it would be interesting to see what pressure is actually being achieved during cranking. But, as I think you know, if the engine is cranking too slowly then the rail might then fail to reach the minimum pressure, so I would try another battery (your test using another car connected via jump leads is not really good enough, due to the resistance of the jump leads).

Was it a genuine (Bosch, part number ending in 442) fuel filter you fitted?

Welcome to TA. Shame it's not in better circumstances.

Thanks Jon - amazing quick reply

Yep you've fingered me as a cheapskate - its an ebay filter I've fitted ( as I have over the last 5 years) but I think I ruled it out as a problem by having someone else crank the engine while I pumped the priming pump.

I've already suplemented the earth strap with a jump lead cable - made no difference. The fitted strap looks good, but maybe I'll take it off and give it a good clean.

I guess my question is - does any Honda 2.2 start with less then 200 rpm as seen on the meter?

I'll check out the over relief valve with a leak back test during cranking - if I get injector leak back from the injectors during cranking then I guess the injectors are injecting?

MarkJS said:

Thanks Jon - amazing quick reply

Yep you've fingered me as a cheapskate - its an ebay filter I've fitted ( as I have over the last 5 years) but I think I ruled it out as a problem by having someone else crank the engine while I pumped the priming pump.

I've already suplemented the earth strap with a jump lead cable - made no difference. The fitted strap looks good, but maybe I'll take it off and give it a good clean.

I guess my question is - does any Honda 2.2 start with less then 200 rpm as seen on the meter?

I'll check out the over relief valve with a leak back test during cranking - if I get injector leak back from the injectors during cranking then I guess the injectors are injecting?

Click to expand...

I don't think a non-genuine filter is causing your problem, but it might cause issues in the future.

I do not know what the cranking speed of mine is... I'll have a look next time I use it and let you know unless someone beats me to it.

No, the leak back path is not controlled by the ECU. Only the injector path into the cylinder is controlled by ECU electrical signals.

Have you got an OBD2 reader?

No, I don't have an OBD reader. Be nice to know what others rev meter shows when starting, could just be a warn-out starter motor.

The Bosch service centre guys (both ex-Honda) did have diagnostics which indicated the pressure was fine (but probably only during running rather than cranking). How can I tell if the injectors are injecting during cranking - bear in mind I've got a spare one - do they click or something if I connect it up?

If the injectors were injecting fuel into the engine during cranking then it would be firing (even if it didn't then catch). I don't know if you'd hear clicking but if you could somehow put an oscilloscope in parallel with the injector connector then you would be able to see the voltage pulses.

Shame the Bosch service guys didn't use a Honda Diagnostic System on your car. Might be worth asking if they can?

What about a voltage drop test on the positive cable just to rule it out?

Thanks Andy and Jon, ran with both your suggestions this morning.

Volt drop test shows 10.4-10.5V at the battery during cranking and 10.4-10.2V at the starter motor, so I think that's what I'd expect.

I couldn't isolate the fuel leak back from the over pressure relief valve on its own, but I traced it back to where it joins the injector leak back and transfers to a normal fuel pipe. This is a good point to check the whole lot in one go. I had to call out the left-handed, double-jointed midget (normally employed for fuel filter changing) to get the pipe off, but once I'd done that, I stopped off the pipe back to the fuel filter and connected some clear pipe to the outflow. Got my beautiful ***istant to crank the engine, and the clear pipe was filled in seconds!

So that's a result - failed over pressure relief valve! Thanks a lot guys.

Get it looked at tomorrow. Hurrah!

Great stuff... hopefully you've now isolated the problem. Please let us know how it turns out.

EDIT - I've sent you a PM about a replacement rail. Hopefully you have received it?

If poss please take some pics of the valve and location to ***ist other members who may be experiencing a similar problem

I don't have a photo, but here's an exploded diagram (the valve in question is at the left hand end of the rail, item 1... link but yes, a picture would be helpful.

The fuel rail is stupidly expensive, and unfortunately Honda list neither the pressure relief valve nor the rail pressure sensor as a separately-available component... link however these parts are made by Bosch and could well be available from a Bosch service centre. Or do what I did and buy a complete second-hand rail from a breaker.... it's actually very quick and easy to replace the whole rail (although you have to be very careful with the high-pressure connections and keep everything spotless)

This problem of the rail over-pressure relief valve leaking hasn't been reported here on TA very much, but there have been several reports of this on the Civinfo forum (which has a lot more members). I would recommend that the tank return from this valve should be included when doing an injector leak back test, as it causes the exact same symptoms and problems.

Be interested to know how you get on.
I've just posted this;

Hi All,
I've had some hot starting problems from my i-CDTI for some time now. I had a thread running on here previously, from which I gained enough information to get hold of crank and camshaft sensors.
The problem was bearable, and intermittent, so the sensors sat in the glovebox, until recently, when the car car started having serious trouble starting even when cold (enough to start worrying about wearing out the battery or starter).
Because of serious time issues at the moment, I passed to a friend with a successful little garage.
He dismissed sensors as no fault codes were showing.
He then asked me to get hold of a EGR valve as mine was seized, but this made no odds.
He now believes that the injectors are at fault, but is reluctant to remove them, as apparently there is a history of the retaining bolts snapping off in the head, and causing all sorts of problems, almost rendering the car beyond economic repair!!

Cheers

Latest update. As Jon intimated the pressure relieve valve isn't available from Honda separately (although it would seem to screw into the end of the rail and is pleasantly devoid of any electronics). Honda quoted £1300 for a new rail, and seeing as that is more than my car is worth, I decided to decline their offer! A visit to www.247parts.co.uk got a dozen quotes for rails removed from cars being broken from about £90 to £160 in about 10 minutes. I'm not kidding, but I got the first phone call within about 10 seconds of clicking the 'quote request' button! One should be delivered tomorrow. In the meantime, a new development today was that the engine warning light has come on, so I guess the rail pressure is continuing to drop. Still goes fine though but I'm starting to get nervous taking her out now, and it's getting tedious having to squirt Easy Start into the air pipe whenever I want to go anywhere. I'm booked into the Bosch service centre for Wednesday. The tech there seemed to think he might be able to just to swap over the valves rather than replacing the whole rail, but we'll see.

You didn't get my PM then? I've got a spare fuel rail for a pre-facelift. Before you buy one check the part numbers... facelift models have slightly different parts.

sorry Jon. I didn't have PM enabled. The 247parts.co.uk website uses your registration to identify the part correctly but I'll see if it worked tomorrow! In any case, I might only need the valve, and will sell on the sensor off the other end of the rail.

Latest update - all up and running now. The rail from a company who responded to my query with 247spares.co,uk (not 247parts to co.uk - my mistake) arrived next day, and was fitted by my local garage, and she starts first time now. I took the old rail apart back home and the presssure sensor and the over pressure relief valve do just unscrew but with quite a bit of force needed (I used my trusty electric impact tool designed for wheel nuts). The pressure sensor is 27mm and the pressure relieve valve 17mm. I have also notices that I don't get any black smoke when accellerating hard, so I guess that's another symptom.

So, to summarise:

2.2 i-CTDI not starting hot or cold, but running fine once started. Fault started as taking a long time to crank, but eventually wouldn't start at all - resorted to Easy Start in the air intake to keep me on the road.
fault: leakback from over pressure sensor on the injection rail
red-herrings: faulty battery (replaced @£75 by RAC who did a price match) no harm done - the original battery was old and no longer at its best
injectors - one has 20% more leakback than the others but this does not stop the car from starting or running.
Easy test for this fault: Trace the leak backs to where the injector leak back and pressure valve leak back join (under the MAF sensor), remove and plug the rubber pipe and fit a length of clear tubing and crank the engine - pipe filled in seconds. If this happens you have either a failed injector or a failed pressure release valve.
Do not buy a new rail from Honda - I was quoted £1300. A rail from a scrapyard was £100 and its a year youinger than mine. recommend 247spares.co.uk. recommend my local Bosch service centre Bardell & Byrne in Letchworth - happy to use used parts and didn't overcharge me. Confirmed that it wasn't the injector for me.

Thanks for the update.
I have mine parked up at work now while I decide what to do with it.
Unfortunately, the engine light is now on as well!

I might just put it up for sale as a bad starter. if it doesn't sell, then I guess I need to look into it further.

Cheers

The 'all in one' leak back test described above would be a good check.

There is vastly more leak back in one injector than the others, which are all uneven.
Worth trying the pressure relief valve. this seems a much easier task that changing the injectors (shouldn't injectors be a serviceable item?

Great news Mark, glad she's OK again and that it wasn't an expensive repair.

This is becoming a common problem!

I have exactly the same issue with my 06 iCDTi Tourer
I've had it from new and its had only minor bits until the VSA pump went last Christmas.
Had it repaired (via my local garage) and its been fine since apart from replacing the battery last summer.

first noticed things behind were a bit smoky when accelerating uphill.
Then it seemed to need to crank a little longer to start, but always did after a few seconds.

Then we went on holiday in December and used a valet parking company.
Got called back to the car by an announcement as it wouldn't start to let him go off and park it.
The moment I arrived it started. Phew!

Came back from holiday, man and car were there waiting.
It started first time when I got in it (usual longer crank). Drove home and thought I'd stop at my local Tesco's for some bread and milk.
After that it just refused to start. So there I am stuck in the car park with all the suitcases in the back and an unhappy missus.
Tried numerous times, left it until the engine was cold, still no joy. Its a good job it was only 10 minutes walk home.

For the last month my garage has had it - they found the crankshaft sensor had no output so they replaced it. No error codes since.
Next suspects were the injectors so they were sent off to a company in Eastleigh for refurbishment.
They came back with the comments that they had needed some work, but nothing major and probably not enough to cause the problem.
Refitted to the car and it started first time. Good news

They asked to keep it an extra day or so just to be sure and for the next two days it started every time UNTIL they were about to put it back into the workshop for the night and it just wouldn't start. For the next 2 days sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. Didn't seem to matter whether the engine was hot or cold, it was pot luck whether it would start.

My garage had just about run out of ideas, so the next time it started they ran it up to the local Honda dealer.
Of course, since then it has never failed to start, and there are no error codes, though their tester shows that the rail pressure sensor is giving wildly fluctuating readings.

Their thought is that it could be the high pressure pump (£1800) or the rail (£900).
More testing to come next week........

I'll let you know what happens

Hmmm, I typed all the above out nicely spaced and it put it all into one block and won't let me edit it.

We've just upgraded the forum software Gordon. Still ironing out some issues. Don't worry about it for now mate.

If you've read the whole thread, then you'll see I mentioned the fuel rail over-pressure relief valve leaking and preventing correct rail pressure being achieved during starting. This is a fairly common problem on the i-CTDi and is really easy to confirm. Replacement is also an easy DIY and you don't need to replace the whole rail, as Bosch (but not Honda) do sell the valve separately.

Jon - not sure if you've done this already, but if not, can you perhaps put a little DIY in the appropriate section with pics and i'll make it a sticky.

Ah, Fahad, just seen your post. Good idea... it is becoming a very common problem both here and on Civinfo. In fact, I recently helped someone on Civinfo who has since written a how-to complete with pictures. While this is a Civic, all the relevant technical issues are the same for Accords and the OP is happy for me to copy his thread across to here.

However, since the TA site upgrade I've been completely unable to insert links (or include quotes, but probably a separate issue?). As soon as this is working again for me I'll get this done. Definitely as a link to the Civinfo thread, but I'll also attempt to create a stand-alone TA thread that can be made a sticky.

Jon can you send me a PM with the thread and I'll try copy pasting it into a new thread

Okay, so after all this time messing about, I've popped on a used injector rail (£90 + delivery via 247spares) and the problem is sorted!

Two things;
1) Thank you all. The forum has been more help than anything or anybody else.
2) This is clearly an inherent problem with these cars, as well as the £1,200 drive shaft issue. Surely there should be some kind of admission from Honda that this is a failure in design, as they trade on their reputation for reliability. The drive shafts at least should be a re-call. I'm happy to tell my story if anybody else thinks that the forum should be talking to Honda for some support on behalf of the forum.

Look forward to getting involved in some less grim threads.

Cheers

Hi Maxim... I think the rail over-pressure relief valve failure is fortunately less of a widespread issue than the driveshaft problems, but nevertheless is becoming more widely reported. Glad you got a rail for a relatively cheap cost, at least that is a saving grace with this problem (and that it is an easy DIY), so long as you avoid buying the parts from Honda!