Littlebo/UKCL9 CL9/CM2 - K24 Reflash/Remap Test ECU

Freddo, I repeat one more time, especially for you, dyno can't represent part throttle driving experience, Honda hasn't used vtc tune advantages in that part of map. You don't see 90% of the map on that picture and it can only be a.s.s dynoed.

I like both , Waters and Plant.

I think using hater must hate was the wrong statement. Sorry if I afended wasn't my intention.

Don't worry. It harks back to another thread you may not have been aware or noticed. I think it's actually an ok saying in itself, but it's a bit of a sensitive one in the context of some of the people rattling around this subject . Best it left alone.

Crispy , man . IMHO youve made a mistake when u put RBC on every day car. You lose low and mid with it , it was designed for racing and high revs , which you dont see often daily. I highly recommend you to put rbb back and work out flaws on intake and exhaust sides to reduce pumping losses . Youll have best of both worlds then , better daily 2-4k rpm torque while cruising and better top with good intake and header , this way your setup will be more balanced.

@ Steve - rather than quote your post #89 (cos it makes posts too long), I'll try to reply here.

Before I do though, I need to explain "where I am coming from".

---------------------------------
I have previously mentioned that at one time I did work in engine test beds at Rover. From ~1986 to 1994, Rover Group was starting to get somewhere, particularly because of the partnership that Rover Group had with Honda. I had a Rover 827 company car (well it was a "company lease", in which I paid about £150 per month for the pleasure of driving a brand spanking new 827). It was a fabulous car, it had a lot in common with the Legend (engine and floor-pan at least). My job was to test some of the engine maps against various components on the engine - e.g. manifold and camshafts. I also did some "artificial" fuelling runs using acceleration, cruising, and deceleration profiles for urban and motoroway driving (the profiles were from standards that the marque/model would undergo on the road for published mpg figures).

The Rover ECU was called "MEMS" (modular engine management system), because the MEMS ECU could be configured differently for different Rover models. There were literally hundreds of maps available within Rover for each MEMS ECU, according to the software version that was in the MEMS. So for any testing, the test had results had tp state both the software version and the map that had been used, along with the cams and the manifolds.

At some point in time, a few cams, the manifold, the software version, and several maps were selected for pre-production, in which test drivers at Gaydon test centre would drive the car on a track and on public roads, to choose the cam and map that gave best "drivability".

For a definition of "drivability", I have found a definition in wikipedia "Drivability is the vehicle’s response to general driving conditions. Cold starts and stalls, RPM dips, idle response, launch hesitations and stumbles, and performance levels" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_engineering and best of all a research-paper (edit: won't launch, see edit at the end)
---------------------------------

So, here are my points:

1. the "drivability" of a car is partially a point of target market group, plus, emissions and mpg obtained in the country-market legislation urban and motorway profiles at the time
2. Honda will have done extensive engine tests and road tests to choose the map that is in your car
3. if one alters the map, one may also alter the "drivability"
4. one may also alter the emissions (not MOT emissions), and the mpg, according to where and how the car is driven
5. by altering "drivability", one is simply altering the car's behaviour as perceived by the driver, but in fact by definition, this is only a perception

My point 5 is an important point. In various threads in this forum, I have often mentioned that I could rarely get more than 250 miles on a tank, no matter how much I tried (and I've been driving this car for over 8 years now). I did say somewhere that I thought that there was something I was doing that was "out of my awareness" that was wrong.

About 6 months ago I realised what I was doing wrong, I was keeping the car in low gears at light throttle openings too often. I now watch the rev counter far more often, and by keeping the revs below 2000 rpm (not all the time, plus not restricting my occasional burst of speed) I now get 350 miles to a tank.

The car is just as drivable, in fact more so - so by changing my own techniques, I now enjoy the car more and get more mpg. This did not require a reflash of the ECU, what it required was a reflash of my sub-conscious driving technique.

All I can say Steve, is that the drivability has altered your perceptions, but your statements about "more torque" and "no need to change down" do not add up. If you drove along a motorway at 70 mph in 6th gear, alongside my car at 70 mph in 6th gear, I can guarantee that the tyre type and tyre pressures would have more effect on acceleration and mg of either car. The same applies to 5th, and the same applies to 4th up to 80 mph.

I have never said that this reflash does not have benefits. I have never been rude to anyone in this thread or the other thread (apart from a bit of banter between Eric and myself, which Eric and I both enjoyed).

What this reflash will offer is 10% improvement in WOT acceleration when the revs are over 5000 rpm, which means 0-62 mph in 1st then 2nd, 0-85 mph in 1st then 2nd then 3rd, and 0-112 mph in 1st then 2nd then 3rd then 4th.

Anything else is definitely subjective, and where low gears are not being used for acceleration, any perceived improvement is down to a change in drivability, which is a market-group style of driving.


edit: the research-paper

http://www.aicit.org/AISS/ppl/AISS3456PPL.pdf


seems to launch there

@ Steve - a final thought - sorry if you thought I was "sniping", I was in fact being factual. The point is that this thread is visible to the whole world [hello world] and I know for a fact that Sergey was pointing readers in other forums. to the other (now locked) thread, and probably will no doubt do the same thing with this thread. Not that there is anything wrong with that, indeed it shows lateral thinking. So if this thread is also being used as "indirect product approval", particularly as it's written by a moderator, then I say that deeper technical statements should be made. If you want me to "review" the particular statements, feel free to ask, and I will explain why certain statements are nebulous http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/nebulous

Long statements short, we all know that you are old good smart engineer but stop to be old and dull, try it in person like it's been offered ya long time ago and post a subjective review instead of blah blah about previous sentury. It's a reflash feedback thread, not a manual how to drive stock ECU the right way, isn't it ? I dunno who's made preproduction runs and tests but Honda chose wrong map for this setup, period. I can imagine wat ya think, how it's possible that unknown person been able to tune it better than group of professionals ? I also don't know lol ) passion, different approach, different techniques maybe.

^ that's fair play Sergey

hope it's fair. at least hundreds of feedbacks support me.
wheels do have some short spin under hard 2nd gear change with open throttle ( as it usually happens when u wanna outrun that guy ), caused exactly by those masses you mentioned. and it's hard to believe for you but Honda race team use aftermarket cams ! yep, some US losers been able to make better cams. and I strongly suspect that factory cams also been r&d outside Japan. this tune is a contribution to make it even more Honda, it's like a cherry on top of nice pie )

my English really that bad ?

I think that our concepts of what a map for a family saloon should be, are a long way apart. I don't have an issue about engaging the VTEC earlier with the right fuelling, or extending the rev limit with the right fuelling, but the rest seems unnecessary. I am sure that Honda had maps very similar to your map, but chose the map that is in the production car for market reasons - i.e. to pass country-specific emissions tests (not MOT), to publish mpg for country-specific drive-test profiles, and for the way the car responds according to the expectation of purchasers in the target market. When I bought the car I knew what I was buying and I knew that the price was for a family car that was the best value according to a suite of compromises. Although I did search for a reflash in tandem to Steve's search, I have since re-thought this and take a more realistic approach to what the car is - simply, it is what Honda produced for the reasons given.

edit: as Fahad said in #79
"[show] the effect of the remap without mods and then build it up, both on the same car under the same climatic conditions etc and on the same dyno.

It will take some effort but then you will have a good reference point to refer people to who are interested in your product and you may also find some tweaks you can make to your map to improve it further."

- that is called a sales brochure, and is more concrete than written reviews about "drivability"

Im not shure they had maps close to something really good because i was still able to tune performance and fun oriented CTR better then thay did. And i dont think that dull calibration is what family car really needs ... Just put there the most powerful possible map and let ppl decide what they want , rev less to transport a granny to buy some milk or rev it to the limit and dust everyone . I just ****ed off how much they stolen from CL9 customers. Im trying to investigate who really makes tune for Honda for factory cars, wanna ask some questions, first one is why they didnt used VTC while they have it installed in the engine.

littlebo said:

Im not shure they had maps close to something really good because i was still able to tune performance and fun oriented CTR better then thay did. And i dont think that dull calibration is what family car really needs ... Just put there the most powerful possible map and let ppl decide what they want , rev less to transport a granny to buy some milk or rev it to the limit and dust everyone . I just ****ed off how much they stolen from CL9 customers. Im trying to investigate who really makes tune for Honda for factory cars, wanna ask some questions, first one is why they didnt used VTC while they have it installed in the engine.

Click to expand...

I think that you seriously underestimate the scale of Honda Automotive R&D. They have several sites, probably the Tochigi site is where they do the maps, because they have a proving ground there http://world.honda.com/RandD/tochigi/

As I say, the map that is in the production vehicle will have been chosen for several reasons, including emissions legislation (not the same as MOT test) as well as low stress of the engine and drivetrain. The driveshafts in these pre-facelift 7th gens can cause problems, many threads on TA about it. That might be one reason why there is a dip in torque at the point where the 1st to 2nd gear change is made, to protect the driveshafts under harsh acceleration at the 1st-2nd gear change.

There will be very sound reasons for the production map, avoidance of drivetrain failure being one of them. When I first had my car in 2006 I never needed to put any oil in it between services. Around 2009 I found that I had to top up the oil at least once between services. For several reasons I have been doing all the servicing myself, and I find that the engine uses quite a lot of oil. High oil usage is a contributor towards CAT failure, another reason why I have "reflashed my subconscious driving technique", and I think a reflash of the ECU would otherwise contribute towards CAT failure, possibly driveshafts too.

But I do agree with you that they could have had two maps with a switch, but, that would make their warranty difficult if someone ragged the car continually on the more aggressive map. Maybe a switch that only runs on the aggressive map for 1 minute, with no repeat use for another 10 minutes LOL

But I would also like to ask Honda Automotive R&D a lot of questions, in particular about the rubbish rear brakes on the CM2, and the overly complex aircon on the diesel version. If TA were to organise a visit to Tochigi I would definitely go, and I'm sure you would too. I suspect that a day would not be long enough, but they wouldn't want a bunch of Europeans wandering around their R&D anyway

Right! Let's do it! TA Holiday with a list of questions (complaints ) to Tochigi. Who's in?! :lol:.

You raise some really good points here Brian. They will have tuned the engine to feel luxurious due to its size, but try and keep the bad fumes out the back end to a minimum. And if, like you suggest, they purposely kept the dip in torque to protect the drive shafts, I really would like to go to Tochigi and say WTF!!! Just put stronger drive shafts in from the factory, surely that's not too complicated and/or expensive... :unsure: (and yes I understand the economies of small production cost increases multiplied across the number of cars built ).

There will be many reasons why the K24 left the factory with an apparently unfulfilled performance tuning potential, despite Honda having access to experienced ECM programmers. I believe it would be mainly environmental requirements that resulted in the stock software being seen as 'disappointing' by some, but also longevity of the engine and drivetrain.

The diesel has even more unfulfilled potential, but it is now well-established that meeting that potential can come with a very high price if not managed very carefully (e.g. the stock clutch not having the necessary spare capacity to handle the low-end torque delivery and deleting the EGR function does result in higher emissions of environmentally-unfriendly nitrous oxides). Nevertheless, it is a popular option for many diesel owners of all makes.

I would love to visit Japan!

maybe I should do a separate thread on the driveshafts in the 2.4 (if so, I will put it in the 7th gen section).

basically, the driveshafts have to meet the "top-down" design spec (i.e. you start with the car weight and desired acceleration for the target market). Most people do not appreciate the high stresses that driveshafts take, and if one wants to make driveshafts that can take more stress than is required to meet the "top-down" design spec, then one will increase the weight and hence the difficulty in balancing the shaft. This will increase the costs of the shaft on a square-law basis. The driveshafts will be manufactured according to tolerances, and it is possible that some batches only just meet the tolerances. If one of those driveshafts ends up in a car that is continually ragged away at traffic lights with VSA off, then eventually the driveshaft will give up. It is a lot easier to detune an engine to meet the "top-down" design spec, than tune the engine to its best performance and increase all the costs of the drivetrain so that the car exceeds the top level spec for the target market.

Jon_G said:

I believe it would be mainly environmental requirements

Click to expand...

I believe so too. The car was released in 2003 which was about the same time that Honda started specifying 0W 20 for most of its range also for those reasons.

They knew their shafts are cra.p and detuned engine to save em ?? Hehe . we have a proverb , sounds like a -dumb can even break his di.ck. i have lots of torque and hammer my shafts really hard. every day. but I never stress em when my wheels turned too much , this is what kills em most of time. my buddy follow same rule and have happy shafts for 200+ k km. with compressor and lots of torque. emissions ? maybe, I never measured CO but mixture is leaned and I suppose that if less fuel injected = less emissions we have. engine safety and longevity ... same bout dumb and his dic.k here ). From what I see - Honda engines must be revved hard every day, this keeps piston springs happy and I never seen oil consumption problems vs grocery getters, which had em after just 30-50k km. it's my imho , subjective. last bright example , I flashed car with 80k on it, 2007 se , white, perfect inside and outside. 2nd owner got it few hrs b4 he came to reflash. said that 1st owner babied the car etc. ok, we go to make a good run to test engine and it's rubbish, I hear no vtec, no fun, no power. wth ? one more run, 2nd gear and I have happy New year tree on dash. vtec oil pressure low, vtc solenoid fail. etc. when I removed vtec solenoid I was shocked, it was clogged absolutely. same with vtc. I called to 1st owner and he proudly informed us that he never revved it past 5k rpms. moron. Even after i removed all the dirt out there engine felt weak , not as good as it usually is ... I had to fill cylinders with acetone for a night to un clog piston rings and only after that it returned back to life. So moral of this tale - run it like you stole it and old Soichiro will be pleased.

^ I'm not sure that the above sort of language would translate very well for the people at Tochigi to be able to comment

http://world.honda.com/RandD/tochigi/


品質へのこだわりは悪い言語はありません。 -_-


edit : for those who can't see japanese character sets .....

I strongly believe that Honda ended up with its founder. last few generations speaks for this fact. tons of bugs in ECU fw, lots of hardware flaws because of dirt cheapassing. salesemans rule Honda now, not an engineers. i wanna see new CTR ! maybe its really new era , if not ill save for GT-R )

I'd just like to draw your attention to the closing section of the original post in this thread:

Stevearcade said:

This review is my own personal experience and NOT an official endorsement by Type Accord.

There has been some heated discussion of late about the credibility of the claims made by those selling this map and the newness of members posting reviews. All I can say is, in my humble opinion (which I know for some, doesn't count for much) the car feels better with the reflashed ECU and it has done to the driving experience what was claimed it would. It is definitely not a placebo.

If you wish to contribute to this thread, ask questions or discuss things, please do. But, given the recent heated discussion in other threads, I won't tolerate any silliness of any sort in this thread. This is my review thread, not Littlebo/UKCL9's Reflash Thread Part 2. I trust we're all clear on this. Please keep things clean and keep personal snipes out of it. I won't be posting polite reminders if the mud flinging starts.

Click to expand...

Let's not forget this is my personal review thread of a reflashed ECU.

I reviewed it (see the first page) and said all I had to really say on it. I liked it. I had my own ECU reflashed. I stand by my original review and am still enjoying my car, both under gentle and enthusiastic driving conditions. I cannot yet report any reflash related problems with my car. This is however, my own personal opinion and experience. The opinions of one man. Not a community, not an agenda, not a whole forum, just me. Steve!

As there is a try before you buy service offered with ECU, I'd simply suggest if you're interested, you try it. Yes, it will cost you approximately £6 in postage. £6 pound to decide whether or not you're going to spend £300 doesn't seem like the end of the world to me. I for one wouldn't quibble with having to post it back recorded delivery. Sorry if that makes me sound like a prat!

I should note, people all over the world reflash their cars all the time. Some by big companies, some by small independent ECU software programmers. You hear good and bad stories about both... It's not like Sergey's the first independent enthusiast to develop his own software for a car.

I should also note that if you modify any part of your car, you should do so in the knowledge that it can always have adverse effects on other factory fitted components that are not necessarily build to withstand the increase strain caused by the modification. Whether that be drive train, exhaust, suspension components or whatever it is you've modified.

While I appreciate some of the discussion that's taking place in this thread, I feel we're about to descend towards the same place we were with the thread I locked.

It's clear that Littlebo and Freddofrog are coming at this from two very different standpoints. That's fine, people are different. But you two have been going around in circles all year on this topic and I think it's time to agree to disagree and let the matter lie. Let's all just take it easy for a bit guys.

And no, I'm not going to re-open the other closed thread, as that thread is just going over much the same thing without any kind of a resolve and I don't believe there ever will be a resolve, frankly. So I'm asking you to do me a favour: unless you wish to ask me something about the remap as this is my review thread, don't post. This discussion is getting us nowhere but negativity and arguments. In fact, don't even reply to this post.

Brian and Sergey, if you want to further this conversation, please do so via PM.

Thanks.

Yeah .. thread goes to nowhere with that offtop.. Steve, please delete all my junk since post #81 , ill try to respond only specific questions asked here. Sorry for flooding .

I thought that things were heading to a point of confluence before #107.
I have said nothing wrong, and I know that I have contributed towards a balanced view.
I think that most people reading your thread should find all my posts are relevant.
My posts are civil, well written, non-argumentative, and beneficial.. Note that I have all the original posts in email notification, so I know the editing that you have had to make in certain posts, none of my posts has required editing.
I know that Honda Automotive are highly professional, and their workmanship behind their software and maps is thorough.


edit: I'm serious about an organised visit, but I can't see many people really wanting to go, or being able to converse with Japanese professional engineers.

I agree with you Brian

Lol, too much off top for me to comment

I record short onboard. Stock intake, with resonator box, so nothing crazy Times checked on movie editor show under 7s from 0 to 60.

Also a quick run with my firend who just bought 2003 Type S. Bone stock. So now you can compare.

Before you will say anything. Yes, He was pushing car to the limit!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB07LBOrdmo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nueqHr11VPs&feature=youtu.be

My review of the K24 Reflash ECU

Firstly, I have just joined the forum today so Hello everyone and secondly, this is my first ever post so please bare with me if I go off a little and end up writing a novel.

First and foremost, my car and the mods;

2003 Honda Accord Type S.
188k Miles
Typhoon CAI
Apex Lowering Springs (40mm)
New Shocks (Literally one week old)
19" upgrade CRV Alloys (225/35/19).
HID Kit (4k)
Shell Nitro ONLY

Pre Reflash

So I've had my accord since January 2012 and had the Typhoon CAI installed within the first couple of months, after watching a video on YouTube and falling in love with the sound. This was probably the best investment I made at the time, the car had better throttle response and sounds awesome in Vtech. Touchwood, i've never really had any problems with the car, just general wear and tear and the car was being used on a daily basis, clocking up around 1500 miles a month and never misses a beat (Bought with FHDSH at 150k).

A lot of people said to me, why did you buy a 2.4 petrol when you could have purchased a 2.2 CDTI. IMHO, a half decent diesel was fetching twice as much as the K24 and most likely would have needed servicing more than the petrol, so cost wise it wasn't really worth it.

Anyways, earlier this year I decided to lower the car and throw on some 19" wheels which I won on eBay - BIG MISTAKE. The wheels came off a 300zx twin turbo and although looked beautiful, absolutely destroyed the ride, too wide and catching on every turn. Since then, the car was literally parked up and barely covered 2000 miles and this really upset me because i've seriously enjoyed the car and caught a lot of people out in my K24.

Come August, I decided I should just fix it up, get the little niggly bits sorted and flog it. But wait, there some 19" upgrade wheels off a CRV on eBay, so YES I bought them and straight away noticed a massive difference (the suspension was too bouncy). Why, leaking blooming shocks, so on go a new set and I drive out of the garage and I get that smile back on my face. The car was turning and moving the way I hoped it would, but there was one thing missing.

Post Reflash

So as i'm contemplating selling the car, one thing I always wanted was a reflashed ECU. I'd read on this forum before that it could be done at a cost of £300 plus shipping. So I thought, i've spent this much on the car why not give it a try, worst comes to worst, I wouldn't like it, but hey it's not the end of the world, at least this way I knew i'd tried. If i'd got rid of it and saw someone overtake me in a reflashed K24, I can ***ure you my blood would boil.

I got in contact with Littlebo and UKCL9 who advised on what they would do and reassured me of the effect it would have on the car and how safe it was etc.

Monday 01/09/2014 ECU gets taken out of the car, posted special delivery the following day to UKCL9. ECU was reflashed by Wednesday evening, posted back the following day (again special delivery) and with me on Friday afternoon.

I don't know where to start with this, but all I can say is that the last 72 hours have been unbelievable in my car. The second the ECU went in I took it for a 1 Mile drive (Friday rush hour) and instantly noticed a difference. The car was much much more responsive, the Vtech kicked in earlier sending me back in my seat and redlining circa 7800rpm (73mph in 2nd gear). This was something, obviously;
1) I was not expecting and
2) not ready for.

The last few days have seen the car get driven the most in such a short period of time and I have been beating the hell out of it just so I could get used to car but it's also so damn addictive.

Mileage wise, I can't honestly give a review as to whether the MPG has increased purely because of my driving style but hey, find me someone whose had their ECU remapped and said they noticed an increase in the MPG straight away, you don't because with that extra poke you tend to want to put your foot down pretty much all the time.

The reflash hasn't just pulled the Vtech back or helped it rev that little bit extra, but that car honestly feels so much smoother. It seems to have ironed out the blackspots and from start to finish just feels more torquey (K24 owners will know the lack of low end grunt these cars have).

Given the fact that I have had the car lowered, bigger wheels and a CAI this car really has come alive. Anyone considering getting their ecu reflashed should also consider lowering the car and also upgrading your brakes because it will catch you out on bends seeing as though the Vtech kicks in much earlier.

I felt that the age and mileage of my car wouldn't suit the reflash but I was wrong. I have decided to keep the car a little bit longer and actually use it now. The car hasn't struggled to start, idle incorrectly, misfire or anything since the reflash and no engine warning lights, literally nothing. Straight plug in and play.

I even had my first race on Friday night against a brand new 335d Xdrive. 3 of us in the car going up the motorway and to be honest, i've raced 35d's before and was left for dust and this guy went past me at first like I was standing still but with an earlier Vtech introduction and higher redline it was bumper to bumper at around 12.5mph (yes that's a decimal point there) and then he started gapping me. In the end, I lost by about 4 car lengths and it was an absolute shock to me because stock ECU there is no way I could have caught it at any speed because that car has about 3x the torque mine does. Even at the traffic lights, he opened the window and just said 'You were up my a**e, that thing is f*****g quick' and that line was worth the £300.

Conclusion

The reflash is one of the best things i've had done to the car. Even if you're not the racing type, it's good to know that you have that little bit extra poke for safer overtaking

£300 may sound like a lot, but you'd probably spend that kind of money on modifying the car in another way and regretting it (trust me, I know). I honestly wish i'd had this modification earlier and would recommend it to anyone considering getting theirs done. If you're local to me in Halifax, West Yorkshire and want to try before you buy, I am more than happy to show you.

Once again, thank you Littlebo and UKCL9 for your service, it is much appreciated and thankyou for reading.

^^ welcome Saby

Say hello to my kid bro guys.

Hey Saby ! Welcome onboard and thaks for your time for feedback. Im glad you finally recognized a pearl in your car. At 188k life just starts lol ) This car can do more. Just in case you wanna see dat 335 in your rearview mirror you can add a littlebo header, upgrade tranny a lil and then youll feel the real full pawa of that K engine. This will give ya another 5+ bodies on the run. Good luck on the road.

I've just done about 30 miles with the test ecu. To summarise:

Up to 3000 revs could not feel an increase in torque or power, what I did notice is that car feels smoother and more responsive.

Over 3000 revs the car pulls like crazy. It took me by surprise. Pulls nicely till 7500-7600 without loosing any power.
It is a significant improvment in power from stock. The engine sounds amazing, you can hear it's grunt a lot better and sooner.


I like the reflash, will come back with more details once I explore it more.

I was driving in a queue this morning, coming to work and can confirm that the car is a lot smoother than before. Driving in 1st and second gear is easier now.

Vtec
Not Vtech