Menu
What's new
By:
Advanced search...

littlebo reflash Q&A

Status
Not open for further replies.
Stevearcade said:
- Brian, we all hear you and your concerns, but please take it easy mate. Speaking as an internet user in general (not as a moderator right now), whenever I see rapid posting on a thread by the same user, it sounds alarm bells about how wound up that person is letting themselves get. The eagerness to post additional thoughts, comments etc... I hope this isn't the case with you, but if it is, remember we're only people talking on the internet. There's no need for pressure and anguish. It's not like if this matter isn't resolved by midnight the world will end!
Click to expand...
no way, I was just doing what "they" kept doing .... I would write a reply and then find yet another post had popped up, same if I edited, so I just started posting as if I was 3 people :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
dinoc said:
But by any cultural barrier I cannot stand posts and offends like those comming from that diesel owner , maybe your cultural background makes you to behave diferentely in cases like these but other behaves in other way ... l
Click to expand...
Jon can be tricky, it's just his style of punk rock humour
 
toffee_pie said:
Pete, (the lucky owner of my old CL9 !) can check the manual, the gear ratios are there.

This is getting out of control here, why do the guys doing this reflash post up recent videos of cars that have been modified, not random ones from youtube.

if the development of this is mature there is ample time to get out on a track and stick up videos.

And we have MPH here in the uk, as Brian said :p

And all the constant mentions of re-flashing in posts here is annoying.

Just get onto the admins and open up a trade section or something, that or open a website.

I'm not saying the product is not good btw, you guys just going about business wrong.
Click to expand...

I'm out of likey's now .....Steve :mad:
 
Steve is da best peace maker and cool us down man ! Hope i study your lessons and recomendations well, at least you dont mentioned me among bad guys ))

Im not gonna promote or push anything, lets keep this thread as discussion and tech one, not like sales. i explained everything i want to explain and just ask the ppl to post their feedbacks, if they like it or not.

freddo, man , you are the engineerest engineer here. please explain why calculated rpms for 2nd gear are 3700 and in real life they are 4500+. this cant be a lag of tacho or something like that.

and why calculated rpms for 3-5 gears are close to real life.

also asking MT guys to check this and respond here how it looks like.

and freddo, once you think im rude - its not so, just get me as tricky lol =)))
 
freddo, you asked why CTR gears ? acceleration is much better with CTR gears at the cost of their reduced max speed compared to CL9 ones, they are close, has no terrible rpm dips between em and operates at higher rpms area also. FYI , lots of ppl looking for that **** whos constructed that gearbox for CL9 to knock in his stupid head with mainshaft. worst tranny ever.

all answers are here http://teammfactory.com/gear-calculator

stock fd 4.389

ctr gears

3.266 2.13 1.517 1.147 0.921 0.738

cl9 gears

3.533 1.88 1.355 1.028 0.825 0.659

also this parts catalogue may be useful for lots of ppl . http://www.partsbase.org/honda/ look for KE , its region for UK , KG is for EU
 
Good stuff with those ratios, I can't find them anywhere, not in the owners-manual, not on the CD either.

To be able to work it all out with those ratios, all I need is the wheel radius to outside edge of tyre, which is not straightforward as the tyre actually spreads out on the front wheel. But it doesn't have to be exact, so I'll say that the diameter = 60 cm.

The circumference is 2.π.r or just π.d = 188.5 cm = 1.885 m

I'll get the wheel rpm at 10 mph

10 mph = 16 km/hr = 267 m/min

So at 10 mph the wheel rpm = 267 ÷ 1.885 = 141.5 rpm

Input to the diff is thus 141.5 x 4.389 = 620.9 rpm

CL9: In first gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 3.533 = 2193.6 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 1st gear is 2193.6 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 2193.6 = 32.366 mph

I could be sarcastic here, but I won't :)

CTR: In first gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 3.266 = 2027.8 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 1st gear is 2027.8 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 2027.8 = 35.01 mph


I'll do the rest in a spreadsheet, which means going onto another computer, could be a while because ....well because
 
Greyhound said:
Similar discussion took place on the Croatian forum where Sergei introduced reflash.
Click to expand...
Hey Dux ) Thanks for support man. Discussion isnt similar , i can ***ure that even you have to study here how to be a really sceptic one lol !! But its good, its pushing you to serve well, to do your best, any medal have 2 sides.
 
right on the big computer now, and I don't need a spreadsheet, I'll just do each gear in a separate post, then put it all togather at the end
 
CL9: In 2nd gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 1.88 = 1167.3 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 2nd gear is 1167.3 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 1167.3 = 60.824 mph (slightly less than my car, I suspect that the 1.88 should have a 3rd digit after the decimal point)

CTR: In 2nd gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 2.13 = 1322.5 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 2nd gear is 1322.5 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 1322.5 = 53.686 mph
 
CL9: In 3rd gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 1.355 = 841.3 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 3rd gear is 841.3 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 841.3 = 84.393 mph

CTR: In 3rd gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 1.517 = 941.9 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 3rd gear is 941.9 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 941.9 = 75.379 mph
 
CL9: In 4th gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 1.028 = 638.3 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 4th gear is 638.3 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 638.3 = 111.233 mph

CTR: In 4th gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 1.147 = 712.2 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 4th gear is 712.2 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 712.2 = 99.691 mph
 
They made 1st gear lil longer to compensate short FD . With short gear there will be too much wheelspin, which isnt good for result. Thats why u have lil higher speed there with 1st gear , its more balanced that way. Stock wheel size is around 63 cm. save your time and use calc i gave in the link. its not mine , its made by real engineers so u can trust it lol )

http://teammfactory.com/gearcalculator.php?kmh=0&tirewidth=225&tireprofile=45&wheelsize=17&tirediameter1=24.97&maxrpm1=7100&finaldrive1=4.388&gearratio1=3.266&gearratio2=2.13&gearratio3=1.517&gearratio4=1.147&gearratio5=0.921&gearratio6=0.738&trannytype=22&tirewidth2=225&tireprofile2=45&wheelsize2=17&tirediameter2=24.97&maxrpm2=7100&finaldrive2=4.388&gearratioa=3.533&gearratiob=1.88&gearratioc=1.355&gearratiod=1.028++&gearratioe=0.825++&gearratiof=0.659&trannytype=&tranny=Calculate+Transmission+1+%26+2
 
littlebo said:
They made 1st gear lil longer to compensate short FD . With short gear there will be too much wheelspin, which isnt good for result. Thats why u have lil higher speed there with 1st gear , its more balanced that way. Stock wheel size is around 63 cm. save your time and use calc i gave in the link. its not mine , its made by real engineers so u can trust it lol )
Click to expand...
well you can use the link, I don't need it
 
CL9: In 5th gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 0.825 = 512.2 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 5th gear is 512.2 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 512.2 = 138.618 mph

CTR: In 5th gear, input to gearbox = 620.9 x 0.921 = 571.8 rpm

i.e. each 10 mph in 5th gear is 571.8 rpm from engine

If max rpm is 7100, then max speed = 10 x 7100 ÷ 571.8 = 124.169 mph
 
Not going to do 6th gear as you'd never reach max speed in that gear.

So let's look at 2nd gear rpm's when car at speed of max rpm of 1st gear

CL9: In 1st gear, max speed = 32.366 mph

2nd gear is 1167.3 rpm for each 10 mph

So engine rpm in 2nd gear at 32.366 mph = 32.366 x 1167.3 ÷ 10 = 3,778 rpm

CTR: In 1st gear, max speed = 35.01 mph

2nd gear is 1322.5 rpm for each 10 mph

So engine rpm in 2nd gear at 35.01 mph = 35.01 x 1322.5 ÷ 10 = 4,630 rpm


next I'll do it my other way to show that my other way works
 
CL9:
top speed in 1st = 32.366 mph

top speed in 2nd = 60.824 mph

rpm in 2nd gear at same speed as top speed in 1st = 7100 x 32.366 ÷ 60.824 = 3,778 rpm




CTR:
top speed in 1st = 35.01 mph

top speed in 2nd = 53.686 mph

rpm in 2nd gear at same speed as top speed in 1st = 7100 x 35.01 ÷ 53.686 = 4,630 rpm
 
QED

we do not need to know the gear ratios or the diff ratios or the wheel sizes to work out the rpm in each gear in relation to another gear, so long as we know the max speeds in each gear
 
Yep , i see its 3700 in calc, but i also see em 4500+ in real life. And youll see same 4500 when you drive your car this morning. wth ??
 
littlebo said:
Yep , i see its 3700 in calc, but i also see em 4500+ in real life.
Click to expand...
different gear ratios then

i.e. someone has swapped gearboxes, or for some unknown reason, Honda used different gear ratios in different years and/or different markets

that is why a chocolate freddofrog is far more useful than a random video from youtube :lol:
 
And wth is going on here also ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkI54wIk5Rg calculated rpms for 2nd gear are 4050 and they are 4800 in real life. I can even put a flashpro log here to show they been recorded at around 4800.
 
Please , sweet chocolate, dont tell me some1 changed gears in AT tranny )) Id paid a lot to see er face when you change 1st to 2nd gear at redline tomorrow morning lol !!!

I cant say i know all but i know a lot bout CL9 , they are same everywhere, except USDM Acura, they have 4.7FD and 3.266 1st gear like CTR.
 
littlebo said:
And wth is going on here also ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkI54wIk5Rg
calculated rpms for 2nd gear are 4050 and they are 4800 in real life. I can even put a flashpro log here to show they been recorded at around 4800.
Click to expand...
rev counter is still trying to catch up ...basically there is a pulse train coming from the flywheel or cam sensors (whichever) and that pulse train lags the reality of the world. It's a "feature" of the "cheap" magnetic sensors used on road-car engines. AFAIK F1 is totally different for obvious reasons.
 
littlebo said:
Please , sweet chocolate, dont tell me some1 changed gears in AT tranny )) Id paid a lot to see er face when you change 1st to 2nd gear at redline tomorrow morning lol !!!

I cant say i know all but i know a lot bout CL9 , they are same everywhere, except USDM Acura, they have 4.7FD and 3.266 1st gear like CTR.
Click to expand...

Sergey, go and take a long think about it all
 
btw, you've had over an hour of my time, and I charge £300 per hour as a consulant
 
i usually charge 302 for secret info bout gear ratios, so you owe me a beer. nah, i cant take lag as an explanation. yep, this speedo isnt that fast but not that slow for 800 rps of difference. tranny is bone stock on random vid, 1st ends at 55 , 2nd 100+ , 3rd at 140+ , exactly as calculated. then wheres lag @ 2-5 gears ? its magically disappeared.
 
but you've had over an hour of my time in fact, and I don't need your time, I didn't need the ratios except to show you how to do the calculations :lol:

reason why lag disappears at higher gears is because the flywheel has less rpm to drop. It seriously is a "lag" in the pulse train.

I don't know how it's done in F1, but on an engine test bed that I saw about 25 years ago they had a slotted optical disc on the end of the crank shaft, that is how precisely and rapidly they wanted the crank position.


edit: so the more pulses per rev, and the faster the pulses are generated, then the more accurate it is. Obviously a single magnetic pulse per rev is behind in time. If you pay me £1000 I will get the info on magnetic pulse "lag" and do the calculations for you ^_^
 
dynamic of lag disappearing is odd, such a huge lag on 1st and no lag on 2nd and up, looks weird for me. i have few guys from honda of US , ill ask em wth is going on with this, i hope this will save me 1000. i know , its all about mechanics and no mistake here, but anyway, i want to make all things clear.

one more thing that needs to be explained is why 2nd gear dont fall out of vtec ? vtec point 4.6-4.8 , calculated shift point 4k rpms, that means it must be on low cam but its its still in vtec by log and by sound. 4800 - 4900 rpms on taho, above vtec point. faulty cheap sensor again fooling ECU ?
 
littlebo said:
dynamic of lag disappearing is odd, such a huge lag on 1st and no lag on 2nd and up, looks weird for me. i have few guys from honda of US , ill ask em wth is going on with this, i hope this will save me 1000. i know , its all about mechanics and no mistake here, but anyway, i want to make all things clear.

one more thing that needs to be explained is why 2nd gear dont fall out of vtec ? vtec point 4.6-4.8 , calculated shift point 4k rpms, that means it must be on low cam but its its still in vtec by log and by sound. 4800 - 4900 rpms on taho, above vtec point. faulty cheap sensor again fooling ECU ?
Click to expand...
no it's both an electronic thing, as well as a problem with the natural laws of the universe. For example, it takes ~8 minutes for light to travel from the sun to earth, and light has an electric vector and a magnetic vector. If the sun suddenly emitted a huge magnetic field, that would also take time to travel to earth. Similarly, a magnetic pickup detects a change in the small electric field, and that change in the field is caused as the part of the flywheel (or cam sprocket) passes the head of the pickup. That event has happened and gone by the time the magnetic field has actually changed, particularly at higher speeds. So straight away we have a lag there (many years ago I had to measure the delay using an oscilloscope and a strobe light). Next, the circuit has to process the pulse from the pickup, then the circuit has to emit a buffered pulse to the ECU, then the ECU has to process it.

6000 rpm = 100 revs per second, so 1 rev = 10 milliseconds. If the entire delay is 100 milliseconds, then the ECU is 10 rpm behind the flywheel.

I never used the word faulty, and I put cheap in inverted commas like this ...."cheap". Why use a £100 sensor when a £10 sensor will do (NOTE that the price we pay for the part is NOT the price that Honda pays for the part from their supplier). Each £1 saved in parts prices is £100,000 pounds saved on the production costs of 100,000 cars. So "cheap" is a relative terminology when in quotes.

Finally, the flywheel drops ~3500 rpm on the CL9 when going from 1st to 2nd, but 2nd to 3rd it only drops 2000 rpm. The delay time is fixed, so the apparent lag is less in higher gears.



I'm going to play some games on this PC now ....AMD FX-4300 Quad-core 3.8 GHz, 8 GB RAM, with GeForce GTX 660 with 2GB GDDR5 and 2GB shared RAM running in PCI Express x16 gen2 slot .....so it's wasted on TA :lol:

bye
 
I've checked mine today , changing gears from 1st to second gear, here are the results:
- changing gear round 7000 rpm, it drops round 4500 rpm
- changing gear round 7600 rpm, it drops close to 5000 rpm

I have manual 6 speed transmission and 4.7 FD, but using gear calculator (***uming the gear ratios are correct , those found on the internet) , the drop in rpm should be round 3700 rpm (with the stock 4.3 FD and 4.7 FD) , but in reality it drops to 4500 rpm.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/imyug2bdhli2uta/temp.png

I've check on youtube 9 videos (changing gears round 7000 rpm) , the drop in rpm for all of them is round 4500 , I bet I did not find 9 owners with custom gear ratios :)

[LE] somebody with stock gearing CL9 type-s , just confirmed the same thing changing the gears round 7000rpm drops to ~4500 rpm, so those videos don't lie :)
 
Yes maybe we should do audio/video confferences from now on to catch his humour .

freddofrog said:
Jon can be tricky, it's just his style of punk rock humour
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top