freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
QEDexec said:
The virtues of double wishbone suspension
- Thread starter exec
- Start date
That's a very simpleton argument there Freddo and incorrect ones too and actually disproves your own ***ertion that Honda are an incompetent manufacturer.freddofrog said:
Honda didn't just have success with turbo engines, they got banned after the 1988 season, they won the constructors in 1989, 90, 91 with N/A engines. There ability to construct a 1.5 v6 turbo was an amazing engineering feat of its own for a company with virtually no turbocharging history and they were always against turbocharging. They came up and produced an engine that dominated a pack full of talented engine manufacturers at pretty much the first attempt in a very short time, there are interesting stories of their engineers and how McLaren were amazed at how quick Honda was able to develop engines, this was their golden period as a company as a whole, so it doesnt surprise me they dominated and broke record that they still hold to this day. They are struggling now because they have re-entered a sport after being what 10 years out of it? and they entered at a time when new technology rules were out, the others struggled initially too when they came out, but likes of Ferrari & Merecdes have been continuously in the sport for decades that they can claw back easily. Honda entered then have been held back by the new development rules and tokens, coupled with poor management, they are struggling, but they never won straight away when they re-entered in the 80's, took them 4 or 5 years, likewise if they stick at it here they will get it right. F1 is not an easy sport, just ask BMW and Toyota, unless you think they are poop too as car manufacturers.
I'm not sure why your bushes go, they should be a long life item, ball joints, droplinks and such can go from high usage as they take a lot of strain.
I'm not sure who bases opinions or buys cars based on JD power surveys? Honda's famed engineering is not based on JD power surveys. Your old Citroens are old basic cars, all old basic cars are simple to work on. Try buying a new Citroen and see how complicated they are. It's actually one reason why I stick to old cars myself, old cars are more simple, easy to work on etc.
I can't say Ford or German cars have ever been marmite to the masses, they are the most popular brands in UK lol, unless your referring to yourself personally. Japanese car parts are expensive, but to say they are the same reliability as French car is laughable. If you want performance from the Subaru's your going to have to buy the big engine H6 or the turbo charged performance versions, because the standard 2.0 boxers are not better performance wise than Honda's VTEC.
I'm going to end this here as I don't see any fruitful discussion, it's just bitter in-factual postings and I like you Freddo so I don't want any resentment starting between us from it.
Car manufacturers and engineers disagree with you. Your car failing on its suspensions doesn't equal = DW being bad or Honda suspensions being bad.freddofrog said:
This is the MOT history of my bro in laws car, not a single failure:
Andyjdmteg
Members
Well everyone I've had must have been a Friday afternoon job or owned by people constantly driving across rutted crop fields , as well as the hundreds of early life failures that came through a single dealership in a year.
I've enjoyed hondas for years as have my family growing up. just pointing out the common foibles that I've personally observed with them over the last 30 odd years. There will always be a variance in quality on any mass produced car and I'm sure anyone that's worked at a brand dealership could tell similar stories. Having said that - in my own experience, Every other make I've had has been relatively trouble free jap / German or otherwise, luck of the draw perhaps. Never once have I had an engine or gearbox problem on a Honda though.
I'm genuinely glad that you've had trouble free motoring with yours, as I am that I don't have to pile miles on mine.
My stepdads 92 legend actually didn't put a foot wrong come to think of it, I think that was part exchanged at around 120k
I've enjoyed hondas for years as have my family growing up. just pointing out the common foibles that I've personally observed with them over the last 30 odd years. There will always be a variance in quality on any mass produced car and I'm sure anyone that's worked at a brand dealership could tell similar stories. Having said that - in my own experience, Every other make I've had has been relatively trouble free jap / German or otherwise, luck of the draw perhaps. Never once have I had an engine or gearbox problem on a Honda though.
I'm genuinely glad that you've had trouble free motoring with yours, as I am that I don't have to pile miles on mine.
My stepdads 92 legend actually didn't put a foot wrong come to think of it, I think that was part exchanged at around 120k
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I agree, I don't want to build resentmentexec said:
I'll leave you with this list, look at the second column, Honda not there -- > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Constructors%27_Champions#By_season
Honda were an engine supplier, not a constructor, and they got involved in engine supply simply because of return-on-investment i.e. free advertising .
Any dumbo could spend a lot of money on fitting a turbo to an engine back in those days, we're still waiting for them to do it today because it's far more complex.
The fact is that Honda aren't up to it at the top of motorsport, so you can't say that Honda's double-wishbone setup is due to some motorsport reason. They probably thought that it was a better idea than struts, but didn't realise that the bushes are a pain to the bloke who owns the car after 6 years.
Hence struts on the 9th gen.
Andyjdmteg
Members
Also that's an enviable mot history
It's all relative isn't it. Ford have a reputation for being a bit unreliable, yet I know people who have run them without any issues. Volvo used to have a reputation for reliability, yet my dad had one and it had loads of problems.Andyjdmteg said:
I personally wouldn't touch one Honda model myself, the 8th gen Civic, they have poor build quality in certain areas, so Honda are not immune to problems, they've also made a batch of autoboxes in the late 90's that were a bit notorious for breaking in North America. There are a few Accord in the States that have done a million miles on basic maintenance, but I'm sure not all Accords built would manage that. No such thing as perfection afterall.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
^ THIS ^Andyjdmteg said:
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
which is my pointexec said:
And I thought I was buying such in January 2006 ....conned LOL
Channel Hopper
Members
Then your earlier claim is incorrect.exec said:
Kayaba commenced their expansion in the Europe market shortly after 1982, joining with APA of Spain, and made massive inroads into UK production in the late 90's, around the time the Gen 7 was being drawn up.
If any dumbo could do that, why didn't the others dominate or win? McHonda won 15-16 races in one season, record breaking. None of the dumbos managed it, even seasoned racers Ferrari.freddofrog said:I agree, I don't want to build resentment
I'll leave you with this list, look at the second column, Honda not there -- > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Constructors%27_Champions#By_season
Honda were an engine supplier, not a constructor, and they got involved in engine supply simply because of return-on-investment i.e. free advertising .
Any dumbo could spend a lot of money on fitting a turbo to an engine back in those days, we're still waiting for them to do it today because it's far more complex.
The fact is that Honda aren't up to it at the top of motorsport, so you can't say that Honda's double-wishbone setup is due to some motorsport reason. They probably thought that it was a better idea than struts, but didn't realise that the bushes are a pain to the bloke who owns the car after 6 years.
Hence struts on the 9th gen.
As for Honda's double wishbone, it was born, inspired what ever you want to call it out of F1, so was the VTEC, this is not me saying it, this is actual facts. They have actually been using DW longer than that, they used it in the 60's when they first entered F1 as a constructor, the RA302 had double wishbones, Showa helped make them too. The fact is you know very little about Honda, it's history, heritage or the company culture, hence why you make these ***umptions.
Read these:
http://hondaroots.com/2016/05/09/ayrton-senna-and-hondas-double-wishbone-suspension/
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CFLs40v77BEC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=honda+double+wishbone+formula+one&source=bl&ots=NKA7Gr7uJj&sig=mdhrAepHU-x9gAffKka9lKs1O1s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfh62P5vfUAhXpDMAKHbWcDuE4ChDoAQg4MAQ#v=onepage&q=honda%20double%20wishbone%20formula%20one&f=false
9th gen has struts because they cut costs and changed the packaging. They have Acura's in the states which are all DW, so they have been making product differentiation between mainstream and premium.
This book is also worth reading if you want to find out more about Honda: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Driving-Honda-Inside-Innovative-Company/dp/0670920568/
You can have the last say, I just wanted to state a few facts.
What claim is incorrect?Channel Hopper said:
Showa make the double wishbone suspensions for Honda. The 7th gen are made by Showa. The 7th generation is built in Japan not UK, it was designed in the early 00's, it has a different part supply line, so not sure what your point is about KYB expanding into Europe.
The KYB on mine are aftermarket OE as far as I know.
Perhaps you have information that I don't know of about KYB supplying parts to these cars.
These might be up your street Freddo
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Subaru-Legacy-2-5-SE-Navplus-sports-tourer-Estate-2010-/282553608862?hash=item41c981ea9e:g:0AwAAOSwwvZZWRQQ
3.6 litres lol
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2010-10-SUBARU-OUTBACK-3-6-R-AWD-AUTO-FDSH-ONE-OWNER-FULL-HEATED-LEATHER-34K-/362025544411?hash=item544a676adb:g:myAAAOSwkRhZWMq-
They look horrendously ugly from the front mind.
I'm surprised you kept your Accord so long seeing as you hate it so much. Go for the Subaru over a Ford when you do eventually change.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Subaru-Legacy-2-5-SE-Navplus-sports-tourer-Estate-2010-/282553608862?hash=item41c981ea9e:g:0AwAAOSwwvZZWRQQ
3.6 litres lol
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2010-10-SUBARU-OUTBACK-3-6-R-AWD-AUTO-FDSH-ONE-OWNER-FULL-HEATED-LEATHER-34K-/362025544411?hash=item544a676adb:g:myAAAOSwkRhZWMq-
They look horrendously ugly from the front mind.
I'm surprised you kept your Accord so long seeing as you hate it so much. Go for the Subaru over a Ford when you do eventually change.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Renault showed the turbos were the way to go in 1980.exec said:
McTAG (McLaren TAG aka Porsche turbo) won in 1984/85
Then "McHonda" won in 86 to 91.
86/87/88 were at the end of the turbo years (as "turbo" was then)
89/90/91 were N/A
Then Williams-Renault took over and won 92 to 97 , also 6 years, but N/A
Honda were throwing bucket-loads of money at it, which is probably where all the mythology about "Honda power" originates.
Channel Hopper
Members
Their suspensions are all made by Showaexec said:
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I'm sure that the Honda adverts claim perfection .exec said:
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I don't hate it, just extremely disappointed that I had to go up a learning-curve to stop Honda dealers ripping me off, which was taking place because Honda isn't all it's cracked up to be.exec said:
Having invested so much time in going up the learning-curve it's difficult to decide what to get next. I think that the electrics/electronics on all modern cars are a disincentive for me, so I need to spend a huge amount of time researching everything before making choice, maybe just buy a Suzuki Swift
or wait a few more years and just buy electric
Channel Hopper
Members
An understanding of Japanese would help nail down the exact documentation, but Kayaba scored above Showa with a few of the Honda bikes (CR250/500s) in the 90's, Japanese built. There is little reason why they might not have worked on four wheels as well, especially since any competition leads to technological advance , lower price and/or less chance of a supply starvation.exec said:
It was the mention of Renault (built in Europe) that I mentioned the Spanish link. Kayaba supplied front /rear suspension for the Megane but also had a host of other manufacturers in the00's, taking their parts as OEM in Europe, including Alfa Romeo, VW, Seat and I think Peugeot. I'm sure there are more.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
^ on balance I reckon you're right B)
The Subaru's are full of all sorts of wizardry. There's not much modern cars that wont have some sort of electronic thing somewhere that will cause problems. But I don't think its all doom and gloom. The Prius is full of all sorts of high tech wizardry underneath, but by and large they are robust and proven now as Toyota have been making them for so long now, should have ironed out and refine the problem.freddofrog said:I don't hate it, just extremely disappointed that I had to go up a learning-curve to stop Honda dealers ripping me off, which was taking place because Honda isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Having invested so much time in going up the learning-curve it's difficult to decide what to get next. I think that the electrics/electronics on all modern cars are a disincentive for me, so I need to spend a huge amount of time researching everything before making choice, maybe just buy a Suzuki Swift
or wait a few more years and just buy electric
You could always go back to basics
https://cars.suzuki.co.uk/new-cars/celerio/
KYB only make shock absorbers not other suspension parts or whole suspension systems. Showa make complete systems and they are the ones that provide Honda with the complete double wishbone system. I've not seen KYB used in from stock myself, they could have supplied the optional sports dampers and they perhaps supplied parts for the torsion bar or strut system used in other models in the last decade, who knows. Honda have a special long standing relationship with Showa.Channel Hopper said:
Not sure what the relevance is with other manufacturers, there are different manufacturers providing parts for different car manufacturers, Sachs is used in most German cars for example.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
^ LOLexec said:The Subaru's are full of all sorts of wizardry. There's not much modern cars that wont have some sort of electronic thing somewhere that will cause problems. But I don't think its all doom and gloom. The Prius is full of all sorts of high tech wizardry underneath, but by and large they are robust and proven now as Toyota have been making them for so long now, should have ironed out and refine the problem.
You could always go back to basics
https://cars.suzuki.co.uk/new-cars/celerio/
I'd get any D-segment car if, before buying, I knew how/where to
1. get hold of the ESM
2. get parts drawings (such as a lings equivalent)
3. get hold of parts at reasonable prices
4. get hold of the equivalent of the Honda HDS
5. get hold of info on more than one person in the UK who could reflash the engine ECU
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I think it's just an extension of the proposition that for at least a decade (or two), all car manufacturers are really only body-stylers that pick and choose systems from suppliers and integrate them into the body.exec said:
Yes and no, depends on the part. Some parts are completely off the shelf and you'll find them across brands, this can include major parts like gearboxes, most car manufacturers do not build their own (Honda design & build all their own gearboxes), they are from gearbox manufacturers like ZF, Aisin, Jatco, Getrag etc, but they are customised or built to specs. For a lot of other things they are not off the shelf literally, they are simply manufactured by 3rd party companys, it is outsourced by the car maker, they have their engineers create the specs, requirements who then work with the specialist company who then manufacture the part. This is the case because cars are made from thousands of different parts and a manufacturer building every part inhouse would be an insane logistical nightmare having so many factories, build lines etc, so they are outsourced both in manufacturing but also development, those factories themselves might even be outsourced by the third party manufacturers.freddofrog said:
Inregards to Honda & Showa they have a special historical relationship, Showa designed and manufactured pretty much most of the suspension for Honda, including the double wishbone which was specifically Showa, they work in tandem. Showa of course now make parts for other companies too.
Ultimately though the cars are designed both technically & aesthetically by the car manufacturer and its engineers and designers, not by a third party company, so the ***ertion that they are merely body stylers is inaccurate.
So yeh not sure what the relevance is to what was being discussed.
Goodluckmonkey
TA Friends
They're as much wishbones as the double arm/ toe rod setup in a classic mini, from 1958.exec said:
And a bell-cranked rising rate horizontal-shocked, F1 setup is a million miles away.
Advertising.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Well it's about who actually designs the stuff on the cars, if it's outsourced then it cannot be said that the brand on the car is the engineering on all the car, especially on the outsourced systemexec said:
IMO suspension is outsourced as much as brakes are, and much more.
This thread has become a bit of an extension of this one --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23260-so-how-much-of-your-accord-is-an-off-the-shelf-design/