freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I'm out of likes nowGoodluckmonkey said:
The virtues of double wishbone suspension
- Thread starter exec
- Start date
An interesting recent example is the recent joint venture announced between Honda & Hitachi to develop electric vehicles. Honda always work one to one with its partners, they are both in a venture to develop new technology relating electric vehicles and battery technology, Honda has certain expertise & Hitachi in their respect fields and they work together to develop new technology.
Hitachi also sell off the shelf parts to Honda and other manufacturers, for example the ADAS systems in Nissan is made by Hitachi. There's varying ways manufacturers work together.
Hitachi also sell off the shelf parts to Honda and other manufacturers, for example the ADAS systems in Nissan is made by Hitachi. There's varying ways manufacturers work together.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
damn I'm still out of likesexec said:
Your conflating different things now.Goodluckmonkey said:
Double wishbone is a type of setup, it includes two arms thats the basic definition of it. How you implement and apply the system can vary in a million different ways.
Honda don't advertise their cars based on the double wishbones, nor do they claim its the same setup from the F1 car! Who even claimed such a thing? Who would even install an F1 setup in a road car! The engineering scope behind double wishbone is its control in camber thats what its used for.
If you can show me anywhere where an expert has said these arent double wishbones you can have a cookie, otherwise please stop with these nonsensical nitpicking comments.
I'm not here to argue for competition or point scoring, you guys seem to have made it a game to try and 'take down' whatever I say, even well known established facts are now matter of nitpick. If you can't make a sensible rational point then don't bother. I think I'll stick to the other forum, at least theres people who actually understand and appreciate Honda's, even if it becomes a bit of an echo chamber at times.
Jon_G
No Longer Active
I stand by my earlier comment that the complexity of DW suspension systems causes problems as the car becomes older and gathers miles. Suspension problems have caused my last three MoTs to be failures (2015 - front upper control arm and rear drop links / 2016 - both front lower suspension arm compliance bushes / 2017 - other front UCA and both front lower ball joints). Additionally I discovered a front droplink hanging off and replaced the front pair. In fairness, I'm now up to 180k miles, but there is a definite 'theme' to my MoT failures!
Jon_G
No Longer Active
LOL. Hardly anyone there bothered to post any replies!exec said:
I agree also, it is complex and its known for it, and as it ages the parts are going to become worn, mine are tired and I can feel it, 18 year old rubber bushes and all...but if you overhaul it with quality parts you should get another set of life from them, of course a lot of people wont want to pay for that. But that is drawback with any complex system, there'll be extra maintenance and costs involved.Jon_G said:
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I agree that it does look like we're all ganging up on you, but most of us have 7th gen (and 8th gen) Accords and have experienced similar issues with the bushes. As I say it is the thing on the car that really really bugs me.exec said:
I don't think we're attacking DW per se, but just the way it's been implemented on the 7th and 8th gens. The way it is on the 6th gen looks much better, so why oh why did Honda change it ...or maybe they didn't, maybe it was outsourced and the Honda guys just said "ahh soo" LOL
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Yeah I noticed that HK doesn't really discuss technical stuff much, might be because all the people with too much technical knowledge eventually get banned :lol:exec said:
It's a good place for political and Political discussions though
Don't get offended btw, your presence is appreciated, you know your stuff. It's also amazing how everyone has kept their hair on, no mods allowed on TA LOL
Channel Hopper
Members
You'll need to expplain just which parts you think Showa end at and Kayaba start then, as I understand it Honda views them as useful competitors when working on the inventory of parts for any vehicle with their logo.exec said:
Of course if neither are supplying the bushes and other components that cause so much trouble for others then the whole thread is going to pot after this.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
well no, it's only a side-issue really, the OP's original post and his in-depth explanations do have loads of merit, it's just that several of us have had bad experiences with MOTs, and quite a handful of other in older threads.Channel Hopper said:
Well having never owned a 7th gen I can't really comment on ownership experience, I'll be changing upper arms on one this weekend, so going to take further look at the lower arm to see what all the fuss is.freddofrog said:
The 7th and 8th gen have wishbones at the bottom, the 6th gen is more of T-arm, there are different arm designs out there and they have their different purposes, Honda would have chosen its application for particular requirements.
Wishbone style lower control arms also come on Macpherson struts.
I would imagine the bushes go often because in such a design being key pivot point they take a lot of abuse.
KYB only make shock absorbers, so thats pretty easy lol. Factory shocks on the double wishboned Accord were by Showa.Channel Hopper said:
They are simply a partner and supplier of shock absorbers of which I am still waiting to see what models they are installed in as you said earlier...
As for bushes I am not sure who makes them, the arm is made by Showa, so its either made inhouse by Showa, or outsourced from somewhere else.
Channel Hopper
Members
I mentioned earlier they had ties with Renault, more than just providing spring/damping units. I also know they are now manufacturing complete fork ***emblies as OEM on motorcycles , so add to suspension a skill of steering geometry (and one would have to include bearing attachments to a chassis/frame) into their portfolio.exec said:
You might be inferring a strut (MacPherson or similar) is little more than suspension ***embly, in which case I am posting needlessly.
Jon_G
No Longer Active
Everyone there is afraid to disagree. Seriously!exec said:
I just did a google of kyb and renault, all it comes up is with shocks and springs. In their product portfolio for automobile, for suspensions all they have is shock absorbers. For motorcycles they the generic 'suspension' which should include different parts. Perhaps I have missed something, in which case you can show me where they are making other automobile suspension components for manufacturers and more importantly for Honda, which was your original point of contention with my comments. So if you can show where they have been making arms, droplinks, balljoints, bushes etc for Honda that would be useful.Channel Hopper said:
Jon_G
No Longer Active
I walked away after a series of petty niggling from the meglomaniac-in-chief. The account 'Zebster' was later turned into a 'guest' account which I cannot log into to.exec said:
Channel Hopper
Members
Ah, no (but yeah, but no) That's not how it's doneexec said:
A few hours back you posted this as a response to Freddo
Honda haven't copied anything from Hyundai lol, its the other way round, I have worked on Hyundai/Kias their engineering is copy of Japanese cars. Honda's double wishbone is inhouse engineering, it's somethig their engineers developed, if you knew a little about Honda and what they are about you would understand this. Their suspensions are all made by Showa, and they are not off the shelf products, they are made by Showa a third party company, but that isn't an 'off the shelf' part.
Kayaba certainly wasn't on your radar at 4.30pm, but it is now, which has me at a disadvantage as I'm going on paperwork I must have looked at some fifteen years ago.
I'm not the person that would bother taking up an offer to prove anything based on a throwaway comment to somebody else on a forum, but seeing as I've had a pint of rather nice cider (or is it 750ml ?) in the past two hours I just might.
Channel Hopper
Members
http://www.kyb-europe.com/pdf/annual-report-2014.pdf
Largest shareholder three years ago - Toyota, which might be why KYB do not advertise links to other Japanese automobile manufacturers, and vice-versa.
Largest shareholder three years ago - Toyota, which might be why KYB do not advertise links to other Japanese automobile manufacturers, and vice-versa.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I'm getting a bit confused by it all now :lol:
It's an interesting thread though. Sometimes when one starts a thread one thinks "jeez I wish I hadn't bothered" because it takes up sooo much of one's time.
If exec isn't already feeling that way, let's not get into it too much more
Re "the banned", it's not just Jon and I that were made "guest".
For some reason, the chief over that way tends to ***ociate people in groups, and he was prone to purges now and again. If he doesn't see you as part of a "group" then it is unlikey that you will ever get "purged" either as an individual, or if a"group purge" takes place.
I think that this tactic is classic in someone whose ego is too easily bruised, and so when they feel bruised their psyche amasses several people and feels the urge to purge them all.
There have been many purging sessions, the last two that I remember happened during "Toyotagate" sometime in September, then another lot during "brakeshieldgate" in January.
Although the garden over there is well-maintained and looks nice, for a garden that has many different types of shrubs and flowers, if one keeps on purging out some flowers that don't seem to look right in the garden, the garden is always going to look a bit empty.
It's an interesting thread though. Sometimes when one starts a thread one thinks "jeez I wish I hadn't bothered" because it takes up sooo much of one's time.
If exec isn't already feeling that way, let's not get into it too much more
Re "the banned", it's not just Jon and I that were made "guest".
For some reason, the chief over that way tends to ***ociate people in groups, and he was prone to purges now and again. If he doesn't see you as part of a "group" then it is unlikey that you will ever get "purged" either as an individual, or if a"group purge" takes place.
I think that this tactic is classic in someone whose ego is too easily bruised, and so when they feel bruised their psyche amasses several people and feels the urge to purge them all.
There have been many purging sessions, the last two that I remember happened during "Toyotagate" sometime in September, then another lot during "brakeshieldgate" in January.
Although the garden over there is well-maintained and looks nice, for a garden that has many different types of shrubs and flowers, if one keeps on purging out some flowers that don't seem to look right in the garden, the garden is always going to look a bit empty.
I don't think you understand how an argument works. If you make a claim the onus is on you to prove it.Channel Hopper said:
I stand by my statement, all Honda double wishbones are made Showa, if you can prove otherwise I will happily correct myself, this isn't a competition.
You made a claim yet you don't know even know if its true or not. You can google Honda & Showa, and you'll get plenty of results relating to their relationship, yet nothing on Honda KYB. I'm not even really disputing the fact that KYB might make parts for Honda, their shocks are popular choices, other companies may even make other parts in other systems Honda deploy. KYB might even make motocycle suspension for them. But the discussion was about double wishbones in their cars and Freddo was saying Honda copied Hyundai.
If it's too much of a hassle for you to find out the info, then its fine i'm not fussed about knowing dont want you spending loads of time trying to hunt down info on a petty discussion, but it would be interesting to know if you do.
lol Freddo lets avoid slipping into flaming. I am fan of the other club, its got actual enthusiasts on there as it is an enthusiast oriented forum. Most of you guys here are more 'owners' of a model so its different, perhaps why you didn't enjoy the other forum as your not Honda enthusiasts.
As for this thread, it has been interesting apart from the petty nitpicking, infactual ***umptions and snide remarks made.
As for this thread, it has been interesting apart from the petty nitpicking, infactual ***umptions and snide remarks made.
That is irrelevant, Denso are majority owned by Toyota, they are well known for making many parts for Honda's.Channel Hopper said:
On this site it states KYB makes shocks and struts for Honda: https://www.kyb.com/about/facts-and-figures/
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Well if you think that was flaming .....exec said:lol Freddo lets avoid slipping into flaming. I am fan of the other club, its got actual enthusiasts on there as it is an enthusiast oriented forum. Most of you guys here are more 'owners' of a model so its different, perhaps why you didn't enjoy the other forum as your not Honda enthusiasts.
As for this thread, it has been interesting apart from the petty nitpicking, infactual ***umptions and snide remarks made.
Hope you aren't including me in that last sentence :huh:
Channel Hopper
Members
Over the years, Kayaba has been developing high quality oil for their suspensions. The oil viscosity, thermal capacity and additives
have been specifically selected to obtain maximum performance. The Genuine Kayaba oil is widely used in development, testing,
standard production and factory race teams. Oil quality has a major effect on the way suspensions operate. The specifications mostly
affects friction, oil flow, heat dispersion and lubrication. All KYB suspensions are being developed from the beginning to be used
with the original KYB oil. Only by using the original KYB oil, you have the guarantee that your suspension will perform the way they
are meant to be.
have been specifically selected to obtain maximum performance. The Genuine Kayaba oil is widely used in development, testing,
standard production and factory race teams. Oil quality has a major effect on the way suspensions operate. The specifications mostly
affects friction, oil flow, heat dispersion and lubrication. All KYB suspensions are being developed from the beginning to be used
with the original KYB oil. Only by using the original KYB oil, you have the guarantee that your suspension will perform the way they
are meant to be.
You haven't confirmed whether a - MacPherson - strut is purely suspension or something more.exec said:
Goodluckmonkey
TA Friends
Honda motorcycles have had shows sussies and nissin stoppers (almost) exclusively since before i existed, save for a few special models and a period through the late 80's through mid/late 90s where their MX bikes had showa forks and kayaba shocks.
There's a lot of history there.
Honda do a lot of things just because they can.
RC166
RC30
NR750
Ribi quadrilateral-linked Honda RC125 (twin cylinder)
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ribi+rc125+honda&oq=ribi+rc125+honda&aqs=chrome..69i57.9195j0j4&client=ms-android-h3g-gb&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=7wIisKOHkuv93M:
All Honda just flexing their muscles.
There's a lot of history there.
Honda do a lot of things just because they can.
RC166
RC30
NR750
Ribi quadrilateral-linked Honda RC125 (twin cylinder)
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ribi+rc125+honda&oq=ribi+rc125+honda&aqs=chrome..69i57.9195j0j4&client=ms-android-h3g-gb&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=7wIisKOHkuv93M:
All Honda just flexing their muscles.
Uploaded a video here to demonstrate a quality of double wishbone, not sure if you can tell much from it as perspective nor quality is great. But on that road around 5 second mark you can see, there is dink on the road, if thats the right word to use, on the Accord it always stay completely stable, the independent and double arms ensure wheels are flatly and gripping at all times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM8tkd8YTag&feature=youtu.be
I've driven many cars on that road and most become unsettled or lose traction on that bit, had one scary moment in an i30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM8tkd8YTag&feature=youtu.be
I've driven many cars on that road and most become unsettled or lose traction on that bit, had one scary moment in an i30.