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VSA. To be or not to be, that is the question LOL

freddofrog

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Lots of threads at the moment on 7th gen VSA issues, different OPs, different ***les, so I thought I'd start my own :lol:

By selecting certain combinations from Lings ( http://www.lingshondaparts.com/cars/oem-car-parts-diagrams.html ) it is possible to choose different model variants, and then examine the drawings that relate to ABS/VSA

At the time of writing, two key parts in the drawing URLs are
-> "block_02=B__xxxx" -> this relates to the drawing itself
-> "block_03=yyyy" -> this relates to the model variant

I've used 2 ABS/VSA drawings in 4 examples of 2004 Tourer , the "blocks" split as follows

block_02=B__2410 -> is the drawing of the ABS MODULATOR/ VSA MODULATOR
block_02=B__2411 -> is the drawing of the ABS MODULATOR/ VSA MODULATOR (DIESEL)

block_02=B__2511 -> is the drawing for BRAKE LINES (ABS)
block_02=B__2513 -> is the drawing for BRAKE LINES (ABS) (DIESEL)
block_02=B__2521 -> is the drawing for BRAKE LINES (VSA)
block_02=B__2523 -> is the drawing for BRAKE LINES (VSA) (DIESEL)

block_03=515 -> relates to one variant of Accord Tourer 2004 2.0 Exec
block_03=525 -> relates to one ABS variant of Accord Tourer 2004 2.2 Sport
block_03=526 -> relates to one VSA variant of Accord Tourer 2004 2.4 Sport
block_03=529 -> relates to one variant of Accord Tourer 2004 2.4 Exec

The 4 pairs of drawings are (CLICK EACH TO ENLARGE)

Accord Tourer 2004 2.0

Drawing ... block_02=B__2410 ... block_03=515
The ABS-only unit is shown on the left (item 5) and the combined VSA-ABS unit is shown on the right (item 4)
But note that only item 5 is listed (item 4 is absent).
B-25-11 relates to URL with block_02=B__2511 (2nd drawing)
B__2410_515.jpg



Drawing ... block_02=B__2511 ... block_03=515
B-24-10 relates to URL with block_02=B__2410 (1st drawing)
B__2511_515.jpg



Accord Tourer 2004 2.4

Drawing ... block_02=B__2410 ... block_03=529
The ABS-only unit is shown on the left (item 5) and the combined VSA-ABS unit is shown on the right (item 4)
But note that only item 4 is listed (item 5 is absent).
B-25-21 relates to URL with block_02=B__2521 (2nd drawing)
B__2410_529.jpg



Drawing ... block_02=B__2521 ... block_03=529
B-24-10 relates to URL with block_02=B__2410 (1st drawing)
B__2521_529.jpg




Accord Tourer 2004 2.2 Sport (ABS only)

Drawing ... block_02=B__2411 ... block_03=525
The ABS-only unit is shown on the left (item 1) and the combined VSA-ABS unit is shown on the right (item 2)
But note that only item 1 is listed (item 2 is absent).
B-25-13 relates to URL with block_02=B__2513 (2nd drawing)
B__2411_525.jpg




Drawing ... block_02=B__2513 ... block_03=525
B-24-11 relates to URL with block_02=B__2411 (1st drawing)
B__2513_525.jpg



Accord Tourer 2004 2.2 Sport (VSA version)

Drawing ... block_02=B__2411 ... block_03=526
The ABS-only unit is shown on the left (item 1) and the combined VSA-ABS unit is shown on the right (item 2)
But note that only item 2 is listed (item 1 is absent).
B-25-23 relates to URL with block_02=B__2523 (2nd drawing)
B__2411_526.jpg



Drawing ... block_02=B__2523 ... block_03=526
B-24-11 relates to URL with block_02=B__2411 (1st drawing)
B__2523_526.jpg




From other sampling of "block_03" (model variant) it's possible to deduce that

VSA was never fitted to any pre-facelift 2.0
VSA was always fitted to all pre-facelift 2.4
VSA was always fitted to all pre-facelift 2.2 Exec
VSA was optional on pre-facelift 2.2 Sport

VSA was optional on all facelift 2.0
VSA was always fitted to all facelift 2.4
VSA was always fitted to all facelift 2.2


Note that if VSA is fitted, since 2013 it has been part of the MOT --> https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/m4s03000401.htm

Before anyone thinks that it's possible to swap a VSA-ABS unit with an ABS-only unit, I have my doubts, because the VSA/ABS is on the F-CAN with the ECM/PCM and the Gauge Control Module, and I suspect that those latter two units would throw up some lights.
But ***uming that was not the case (or that it was easily overcome), then if someone had a pre-facelift 2.2 Sport with VSA-ABS, and fitted a unit out of a 2.2 Sport with ABS-only (and removed the unlit bulb(s) from the instrument-panel and blanked the switch) , considering that it was a factory option, would that be illegal ?
 
freddofrog said:
if someone had a pre-facelift 2.2 Sport with VSA-ABS, and fitted a unit out of a 2.2 Sport with ABS-only (and removed the unlit bulb(s) from the instrument-panel and blanked the switch) , considering that it was a factory option, would that be illegal ?
Look at it from another angle. My Accord doesn't have traction control, will the mot tester check to see if there should be a switch wear my blank plate's fitted and nose around under the bonnet looking for clues to see if I had removed a traction control unit ? I don't think so.
 
You already know what I'm going to say lol.. Illegal? I'm unsure. That's something for the construction and use regulations I suppose, of which I have NO knowledge.

As for passing an MOT, I won't express my own personal thoughts but it shouldn't pass, if the test is carried out properly.
 
Ned if it didn't have tc on manufacture he won't, but if it did he should. The car specific info is given to him upon entering your reg, or probably VIN. I've known this happen years ago.
 
Jon_G said:
Great investigative work Brian.

If only there was a way of putting all the ABS/VSA threads in a common place...
I thought I'd take you up on that idea ;)

The VSA/ABS unit on the 2.4 (and probably on the facelift 2.0) is made by Nissin, indeed the calipers are also Nissin.

On the diesel car, in this very early TA thread --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/1432-vsa-modulator-light/?p=10248 a rumour was started by someone called 'pepster' that the unit was Bosch.

It turns out that, while the VSA/ABS unit on the diesel car is a German unit, it's from a hydraulic brake company started 100 years ago by Alfred TEves (ATE), now taken over by Continental --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Automotive_Systems

No-one knows what happened to 'pepster' but rumour has it that he still spouts nonsense somewhere on the internet.
 
List of all DTCs ***ociated with the VSA/ABS unit


DTC 11, 13, 15, 17: Wheel Sensor (Open/Short to Body Ground/Short to Power)
11 Right-front - 13 Left-front - 15 Right-rear - 17 Left-rear

DTC 12, 14, 16, 18: Wheel Sensor (Electrical Noise/Intermittent Interruption)
12 Right-front - 14 Left-front - 16 Right-rear - 18 Left-rear

DTC 21, 22, 23, 24: Wheel Sensor (encoder, pulser error)
21 Right-front - 22 Left-front - 23 Right-rear - 24 Left-rear

DTC 25: Yaw Rate Sensor
DTC 26: Lateral Acceleration
DTC 27: Steering Angle Sensor

DTC 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38: ABS Solenoid

DTC 41, 42, 43, 44: Wheel Lock
41 Right-front - 42 Left-front - 43 Right-rear - 44 Left-rear

DTC 51: Motor Lock
DTC 52: Motor Stuck OFF
DTC 53: Motor Stuck ON
DTC 54: Fail-safe Relay

DTC 61, 62: High/Low Voltage
DTC 64: Sensor Power Voltage
DTC 65: Brake Fluid Level

DTC 66: VSA Pressure Sensor (Inside of VSA Modulator-Control Unit)

DTC 68: Brake Pedal Position Switch
DTC 71: Different Diameter Tyre
DTC 81: Central Processing Unit (CPU)
DTC 83: ECM/PCM (should also be ECM/PCM codes, or VSA 86)

DTC 84: VSA Sensor Neutral Position (perform neutral position memorisation procedure)

DTC 86: F-CAN Communication error

DTC 107: TCS Operation
DTC 108: VSA Operation

DTC 112: Internal Power Source Stuck OFF

DTC 121, 122, 123, 124: VSA Solenoid
 
To read DTCs from the VSA/ABS unit on the 7th gens, you can either use an 'expensive' OBD2 reader/scanner or use the Honda SCS technique.

OBD2 is a global standard for reading the engine ECU only ("P" codes), but if you want to guarantee to read other ECUs on a car made pre-2008 (ish), it is highly likely that other ECUs are on a proprietary connection. This definitely applies to the VSA/ABS unit on the 7th gen Accord.

Pin-out of the OBD2 socket.

OBD2.jpg


--The red and grey are for power to the OBD reader/scanner

--The green are for connecting to CANbus (no connection on the 7th gen)

--The yellow are K-line (pin 7) and L-line (pin 15) which are both RS232 derivatives.

--The blue are a Ford/GM protocol (no connection on the 7th gen)

The 7th gen uses K-line. There are 2 connections, one to pin 23 on connector E of the engine ECU, and the other to the MICU.
Only the engine ECU is fully OBD2 compliant. The MICU acts as a proprietary gateway to the other ECUs on the Honda CAN.

Honda HDS/HIM
The Honda HDS/HIM can read the K-Line connection to the MICU, so it reads everything. Clones are available on ebay.
Note that, unless a generic OBD2 reader categorically states that it can read "Honda ABS" then it may only read engine data from a Honda car.

For example, 'cheap' generic OBD2 readers and hand-held scanners use the ELM327 --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELM327
The ELM327 interface can only read fully compliant OBD2 interfaces/protocols.
To read engine DTCs only, search in ebay for ELM327

To read engine DTCs and VSA/ABS DTCs via the OBD2 port, search in ebay for HDS/HIM clones using "Honda HDS HIM".
Alternatively search for "Honda ABS scanner" which currently brings up the iCarsoft i990 and the Foxwell NT510
If you search for "ABS scanner" in ebay, you may find others that claim to read Honda ABS in the small print.


Honda SCS
Finally there is a method of reading the VSA/ABS unit using Honda SCS, which can be emulated using a paper-clip.
It is also possible to perform neutral position memorisation procedure using a paper-clip (see DTC 84)

For info on paper-cip method see this post --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23396-abs-vsa-fault-anybody-got-any-advice-please-cos-i-wanna-scream/?p=242991
Note that where he says "Check the errors (with the pins jumped)" etc, any flashes at this point give the DTC codes (long flashes for first digit, short flashed for second digit)
 
bananahead said:
Ned if it didn't have tc on manufacture he won't, but if it did he should. The car specific info is given to him upon entering your reg, or probably VIN. I've known this happen years ago.
I'm not convinced.

The VIN has 17 characters.

The first 6 characters on my car are JHMCM2 which means it was made by Honda in Japan (JHM) and it's a 2.4 Tourer (CM2)

7th to 11th on my car are 7803C 78 is the trim level (CM278 = Exec), 3 is the year ***embled in the factory, C is the factory

The last 6 are 20xxxx which is the serial number (AFAIK Honda always start the serial number with 20) and xxxx (which I'm not going to give publicly) is the serial number of the car made at the factory in the year.

As with detail on the V5, there is no detail in the VIN that pertains to whether or not the car has VSA

edit:
more info on V5C here
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23313-type-number-help-urgent/
 
Ned said:
Look at it from another angle. My Accord doesn't have traction control, will the mot tester check to see if there should be a switch wear my blank plate's fitted and nose around under the bonnet looking for clues to see if I had removed a traction control unit ? I don't think so.
You are one of the lucky bar stewards who does not have VSA in their car B)

What are the first 8 characters of the VIN on your car ?
 
Freddo after reading a load of stuff I think you're right about MOT. I could ask my friend who is a tester to be sure. I must have just heard that somewhere, but the abs thing was really strange as the presence of it was masked pretty well...

I do know that if you have a database such as microcat it can take a reg/vin and give you every last detail about a car, down to trim options etc. It was a popular download in the land rover world in past years (the one we had only covered lr's within specific date range). It was used to choose the exact part number for a specific vehicle.
 
freddofrog said:
You are one of the lucky bar stewards who does not have VSA in their car B)

What are the first 8 characters of the VIN on your car ?
Hi Brian

As you've suggested that VSA was optional on my PFL diesel Sport model, I was wondering if my car does have VSA. It has a functioning 'VSA' warning light, so surely that alone confirms that my car does actually have VSA?

If it was really optional, I'm surprised that mine would have VSA... before me, it was originally owned by a leasehire company and I think it unlikely that they would have wanted to pay the extra cost.
 
bananahead said:
Freddo after reading a load of stuff I think you're right about MOT. I could ask my friend who is a tester to be sure. I must have just heard that somewhere, but the abs thing was really strange as the presence of it was masked pretty well...

I do know that if you have a database such as microcat it can take a reg/vin and give you every last detail about a car, down to trim options etc. It was a popular download in the land rover world in past years (the one we had only covered lr's within specific date range). It was used to choose the exact part number for a specific vehicle.
Try putting your VIN into here --> http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_select_VIN_C20
KE is UK (KG is Germany) so choose KE. Next, because your car is a diesel, you'll probably see that the dealer's database has options for you to choose from.

Jon_G said:
Hi Brian

As you've suggested that VSA was optional on my PFL diesel Sport model, I was wondering if my car does have VSA. It has a functioning 'VSA' warning light, so surely that alone confirms that my car does actually have VSA?

If it was really optional, I'm surprised that mine would have VSA... before me, it was originally owned by a leasehire company and I think it unlikely that they would have wanted to pay the extra cost.
Does it have a VSA on/off switch ? If not then it doesn't have VSA.
 
freddofrog said:
Try putting your VIN into here --> http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_select_VIN_C20
KE is UK (KG is Germany) so choose KE. Next, because your car is a diesel, you'll probably see that the dealer's database has options for you to choose from.


Does it have a VSA on/off switch ? If not then it doesn't have VSA.
There is a switch to turn off the TC, is that the same thing?

Surely the presence of a functioning VSA warning light is proof that one has VSA. What else would it be connected to?
 
Jon_G said:
There is a switch to turn off the TC, is that the same thing?

Surely the presence of a functioning VSA warning light is proof that one has VSA. What else would it be connected to?
Well it's the Gauge Control Module that turns the light on then off (at switch on) so I wondered if there was the possibility that a PFL diesel without a TC/VSA module would just "go through the motions". Since we don't have anyone with a PFL 2.2 Sport who doesn't have TC/VSA then we're not going to find out.

With a switch, the car clearly has TC/VSA. Also, the ABS-only module is thinner than the one with TC/VSA.

Are the first 8 characters in your VIN = JHMCN274 ? Try that link, it's weird how the dealer database gives choices on the diesel (even more if you select KG instead of KE).
 
freddofrog said:
^ JHMCM187 I reckon ;)

Ned said:
Spot on Brian
I had a look through some of your previous posts to discover the model and spec.
I noticed that you had started a couple of threads several months back that got no reply :(
Several of us regulars were not so active during that period, feel free to 'bump' any that didn't get resolved.
 
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