Menu
What's new
By:
Advanced search...

Diesel...cold start problem

The OP (Lee) on this thread here... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/10105-fuel-pressure-regulator-valve/ appears to have replaced his own HPP, so you could try PM-ing him for advice. Or you could be really cheeky and contact an eBay seller and ask for advice on how easy it is to change "as you are thinking of buying theirs, but don't know if you need special tools", etc. Or you could start a new thread in the Diesel Faults folder on this site asking this specific question?

None of us can be sure that replacing the HPP is going to resolve your problem (especially as the mileage is on the low side, as Fahad has already remarked upon), but since you have access to an apparently 'good' used pump then I agree that it is a reasonable course of action (if only for elimination). Despite the 144k miles if it's a good pump, then it's a good pump!

This thread here... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/3503-power-losshesitation-and-now-starting-problems/ has very recently ended on a happy note and - after a few other repair attempts - was eventually found to be a 'fuel pump' issue.

Good luck, and I guess there are a number of us looking forward to you reporting back, hopefully with good news!
 
Jon_G said:
The OP (Lee) on this thread here... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/10105-fuel-pressure-regulator-valve/ appears to have replaced his own HPP, so you could try PM-ing him for advice. Or you could be really cheeky and contact an eBay seller and ask for advice on how easy it is to change "as you are thinking of buying theirs, but don't know if you need special tools", etc. Or you could start a new thread in the Diesel Faults folder on this site asking this specific question?

None of us can be sure that replacing the HPP is going to resolve your problem (especially as the mileage is on the low side, as Fahad has already remarked upon), but since you have access to an apparently 'good' used pump then I agree that it is a reasonable course of action (if only for elimination). Despite the 144k miles if it's a good pump, then it's a good pump!

This thread here... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/3503-power-losshesitation-and-now-starting-problems/ has very recently ended on a happy note and - after a few other repair attempts - was eventually found to be a 'fuel pump' issue.

Good luck, and I guess there are a number of us looking forward to you reporting back, hopefully with good news!
Click to expand...

Thanks Jon..I have contacted Lee already and unfortunately he got the garage to do it but tells me it seemed a pretty simple procedure, once i get the other pump I may have a better idea, just not sure about getting air in the system or if that is even a possibilty.

Will keep you updated as and when things progress.
 
You'll inevitably get air in the system but that's not a big issue. After all it happens when the fuel filter is changed.

I'm pleased to see your f-i-l was a mechanic as that will help. I presume he's up to speed on the precautions for working on common rail systems? There are things you could do on the older systems that are a real no-no on common rails.


Alan
 
H Peasource said:
You'll inevitably get air in the system but that's not a big issue. After all it happens when the fuel filter is changed.

I'm pleased to see your f-i-l was a mechanic as that will help. I presume he's up to speed on the precautions for working on common rail systems? There are things you could do on the older systems that are a real no-no on common rails.


Alan
Click to expand...

Thanks Alan,

What in particular should I be aware of ?

Karl
 
The critical thing to remember is that from the outlet side of the pump onwards everything is under very high pressure. The danger is from small leaks which may well be invisible to the naked eye. Funnily enough big leaks tend not be dangerous because these pumps, whilst producing high pressure, actually produce little flow and so a large leak causes the pressure to decay very quickly.

Here's the document I use to remind myself of the precuations needed - http://www.scribd.com/doc/55148685/26/Prerequisites-of-working-on-the-diesel-fuel-system .

Alan
 
Thinking about it there are three specific additional points I should mention :-

I've not done any work on the HP side of the Honda system but on systems I have worked on the car manufacturers insist that any HP pipework removed must not be re-used but should be replaced with new component(s).

With older non-common rail systems it was common practice to loosen off the joints in the pipework between the pump and the injectors to ***ist in removal of air from the system, This must not be done on common rail systems.

Do not go searching for a suspected leak with your fingers, unless you want to lose them. If you suspect a leak at one of the joints switch the engine off, wait for the pressure to decay and then wrap a piece of card around the joint. Re-start the engine and if there is a leak the piece of card will be shredded.

Alan
 
H Peasource said:
Thinking about it there are three specific additional points I should mention :-

I've not done any work on the HP side of the Honda system but on systems I have worked on the car manufacturers insist that any HP pipework removed must not be re-used but should be replaced with new component(s).

With older non-common rail systems it was common practice to loosen off the joints in the pipework between the pump and the injectors to ***ist in removal of air from the system, This must not be done on common rail systems.

Do not go searching for a suspected leak with your fingers, unless you want to lose them. If you suspect a leak at one of the joints switch the engine off, wait for the pressure to decay and then wrap a piece of card around the joint. Re-start the engine and if there is a leak the piece of card will be shredded.

Alan
Click to expand...

As mentioned, I recently swapped my fuel rail for a secondhand replacement. I had no idea that you weren't meant to re-use the HP pipework, so - untroubled by this knowledge - I simply put the pipework back on afterwards (in order to facilitate removal of the rail I had to undo the pipework from all 4 injectors and take off with the rail, then fit these pipes to the replacement rail before fitting to vehicle). After running the engine I did discover a slight weep from one of the injector joints, but re-tightening did stop that. I guess in an ideal world (or at a Honda garage) all pipework would be replaced, but I 'got away' with it and think that you should too. Make sure all joints are really, really clean before ***embly and bare in mind that dirt is your enemy!!!

I understand that the system runs at around 26,000 PSI, so Alan is quite right to warn of the dangers. I left my car overnight to allow for the system to fully depressurise before disassembly and then carefully cracked open a joint fully expecting a high pressure squirt (I wear glasses, but otherwise I would have worn googles), but there was only a feeble dribble.

After reassembly is does take a while for the air to be replaced by fuel, because of the relatively low flow rate of the pump, but it started after about 30 seconds of cranking.
 
You're far from the only one to re-use the pipes, Jon. I will confess to having done so myself and I know many garages don't bother. As I've said, I don't know whether Honda insist on it or not.

On the subject of pressures they do vary with engine speed and accelerator position. At idle they're typically around 250 to 300 bar and rise to over 1500 bar at full chat. With the engine stopped the pressure drops quickly, usually in under a minute.

Alan
 
Ok well from what i have read and after speaking to Honda I have decided to get them to fit the unit that was sent to me ...they are checking my tracking on saturday and have said they can fit the pump too....all for £134.00 (£50 4 wheel full tracking check, £84 fit pump)...so could hardly refuse and gives me peace of mind too, also they diagnosed the faulty pump so if it isnt that they said they will refit the original and then see what else the problem could be.
Will keep you posted.
 
At that price it's hardly worth getting your hands dirty changing it yourself.

I hope I didn't scare you off with my warnings. That certainly wasn't my intention.

Alan
 
H Peasource said:
At that price it's hardly worth getting your hands dirty changing it yourself.

I hope I didn't scare you off with my warnings. That certainly wasn't my intention.

Alan
Click to expand...

No not at all Alan, just as you said its not worth getting my hands dirty and also if a pipe is perished or somthing then at least they should have something to hand to sort it....just peace of mind really, my only hope is that it will cure my problem and I can then get on with spending money on the important stuff!
 
***UPDATE**

Well collected car from Honda on Saturday morning and the pump that Pete provided (Thank you so much) seems to have cured the staring problems, so a good diagnosis and result in the end to fair play to them.

Also got tracking sorted , the rears were bang on but the front nearside was -1.3 so that was the issue with car pulling to the left, so now all lined up and the car feels so much better.

Thank you to all you guys here who commented and gave me advise, it is very much appreciated, its great to know we have this to hand and can be invaluable at times.

Right now need to sort some rep points for Pete!
 
That's good to hear. Thanks for reporting the outcome - it helps to build up the knowledgebase.

Alan
 
Karl - fab news about it being fixed. And yep, another one to add to the knowledge base.. I must admit I was really sceptical about this being the issue
 
Hmm spoke too soon, after a few days the problem has returned....so seems to me its not the fuel pump, however why would it seem to be ok for a few days then back to how it was........very confused now!....i may go back to Honda and see what they say as they were adament that it was the fuel pump!
 
It's no secret, I never thought it was your fuel pump all along mate. More likely a weak battery cell (honestly I know it sounds far fetched but its common the diesel Accords), possibly some air in the system, even a weak injector or slightly sticking EGR valve. All these things can be tested if Honda are using their tools correctly.
 
This is very disappointing news! And strange how changing it made things OK for a short time.

I think you should go back to the Honda garage in question, seeing as how they told you it was the fuel pump! It's hard to see how they could so wrongly diagnose the pump as being faulty, makes me wonder if you have a fault which causes their diagnostics system to wrongly indicate a faulty pump, such as an air leak on the pump intake (maybe around the fuel filter/priming pump area?). But throw the problem back at them.

Good luck.
 
Thanks guys, just to eliminate one thing I have had a new Battery and as the old one wasnt holding charge very well, but the fault is still there, will ring Honda and see what they say. Will also look at changing FF too.
 
Hi Karl ,
Sorry to hear that the pump didn't fix your problem. This is starting to sound almost identical to the problem I had. My local Honda garage also diagnosed a faulty fuel pump and within 3 days of having another one fitted the car started to struggle to start eventually failing to start completely. What ever this fault is must make the diagnostic equipment believe that the fuel pump is at fault.The garage then were convinced that the fault was a stuck egr valve (they had already cleaned the egr valve while changing the fuel pump). I traded the car in at that point so I can't tell you what the final fix was.

Pete
 
That's very disappointing news.

There is one thing in this saga that I cannot really get my head round and that is why does it start on the second attempt? If it was a dodgy battery why would that be so because the battery would surely be weaker on the second attempt? That said, I'm not saying don't try a new battery - for the cost it's worth doing if only to eliminate it as a possible cause. Equally, with a worn pump why would it produce higher pressure on the second attempt?

The only thing I can think of that remotely fits this scenario is a small leak on the inlet side, probably somewhere between the inlet side of the filter and the inlet side of the pump. This wouldn't allow fuel to leak out but would allow air to be drawn in and air in the fuel could certainly cause starting problems of this nature. Against that surely the dealer would have checked this or did they just plug it into the diagnostics and jump to a conclusion? A scan tool is only as good as the person using it.


Alan
 
That scenario makes sense to me. The other possibility is a faulty glow plug relay maybe, or even a slightly cracked glow plug.
 
Faddy, you've confused me - easy enough to do. I understand what you're saying about the glow plug system but why would that cause the failure to start on the first try followed by success on the second?

I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just that I don't understand.

Alan
 
I didn't think modern common rail engines used the glow plugs very much until the outside temp really dropped?
 
Alan - Maybe clutching at straws, but I'm just thinking if the relay is sticking a little bit, it might not work on the first attempt but maybe on the second... and sometimes a hairline crack in a glow plug can cause all sorts of weird issues.

Dave - That's mostly right, but ECU will always look at certain variables before it decides if it needs the plugs to do anything.
 
Well I will be sure to tell the dealer about the possiblity of a leak on the inlet and anything glow plug related, but you would think that they would go through those tests as a matter of course anyway.

Alan - I got them to put a new battery on when they fitted my fuel pump £85..so wasnt too bad.

Pete - Yes it is starting to sound very similar, pity you didnt find the cause, what else di you try before you gave up and traded in?

Not heard back from them as yet, will give it until this afternoon and then start probing, my concern was how much is this going to cost me, the Service Manager said we just want to get to the bottom of the fault first then we can deal with the costs...hmm, i did say well you mis diagnosed the fuel pump which has cost me IRO £200 to supply and fit, very limited response. I do think they are generally fair though, so watch this space.
 
Ok I think I also need to clarify to you guys the actual fault that is occurring, its not so much as wont start first time...if i keep the key cranked eventually it will, but if i start it normally with a quick turn it turns over then stops, the second attempt at a normal key turn start generally works, although there does still seem to be a roughness about it, not as smooth and my pre-facelift model I had a few years back anyway.
I think I have explained that as clear as possible, just wanted you to try and get a better idea of whats going on.

Thanks again.
 
Hi Karl,

My problem started with it taking longer and longer to get the car started when the car was hot - strangely enough it would start ok when cold. That lasted about a week. Then the cold starting problem started. It was taking between 10 and 15 seconds of continuous cranking to get it going and when it did catch it was very rough for several seconds. Once going it ran perfectly.

I had the fuel pump replaced, egr valve cleaned by the garage, new fuel filter. Every time I got it back from the garage it would start within 5 seconds for a couple of days and then it would start to take longer and within 6 days it would not start at all (only way to get it going was "easy start").

At that point I decided to cut my losses as I had already spent about £1500 on hire cars and getting the work listed above done and new discs and pads fitted( mot was due). The garage seemed confident that they could fix it (they were convinced it was a stuck/faulty egr valve) and gave me a good trade in price.

The only other suggestion I got was to take the car to a diesel specialist for diagnosis.

Pete
 
That description from both of you sounds like air is getting in to the system or the fuel pressure is draining away over night and needs building back up again before it fires. It could even be as simple as a leaking o ring on a fuel pipe connector on the fuel filter or similar
 
I think Dave is right, it will be some small cheap fix, but cost £100s to find the damn thing !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top