littlebo reflash Q&A
- Thread starter ukcl9
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freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
ukcl9 said:
I drive with VSA switched off most of the time, because VSA OFF seems to eliminate all of those issues. There seems to be a lot of mythology on the internet about these sorts of things, but as far as I can tell, they are an inherent aspect of VSA. If I am correct, are you making sure that they are still there in the reflash when VSA is ON ?
Nope, that's not so. vsa off don't eliminate lags nor hangs.
it can shut up tb to cut pawa if wheelspin or sliding detected , it can brake given wheels. but dbw algo is still the same.
vsa usually mess with rear brakes in sharp turns, so for me, disabling it always save me lots of rear pads and discs meat.
Get spare ecu and bust all the myths.
it can shut up tb to cut pawa if wheelspin or sliding detected , it can brake given wheels. but dbw algo is still the same.
vsa usually mess with rear brakes in sharp turns, so for me, disabling it always save me lots of rear pads and discs meat.
Get spare ecu and bust all the myths.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Well I'd like to know what all the mythology is about these things when driving, and also, what it is that I'm experiencing differently with VSA ON and VSA OFF if it's not these things.
The reflash gots nothing to do with VSA.
If you want to go fast you will switch the VSA off as you don't want the traction control to interfer, especially changing gears at the Rev limit (with or without a rehash).
What's got the VSA do with your part throttle response??!!
You do know what part throttle means?
The tuning is not just about WOT, what dyno measures. A lot of tuners tunes just WOT and they don't know how to tune the part throttle.
The reflash is about something else.
Guys... you have the opportunity to test this almost four free. Stop ***uming things and comment after you test something.
We are not a religious secta brain washed with good comments around the world.
Just test it and comments after!
If you want to go fast you will switch the VSA off as you don't want the traction control to interfer, especially changing gears at the Rev limit (with or without a rehash).
What's got the VSA do with your part throttle response??!!
You do know what part throttle means?
The tuning is not just about WOT, what dyno measures. A lot of tuners tunes just WOT and they don't know how to tune the part throttle.
The reflash is about something else.
Guys... you have the opportunity to test this almost four free. Stop ***uming things and comment after you test something.
We are not a religious secta brain washed with good comments around the world.
Just test it and comments after!
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
^ I knew that this would get "lost in translation"
it's like this
1. I am a Chartered Engineer who has spent a lot of time on automotive instrumentation and test beds in the 80's, so don't ***ume that I am some scrawny half-baked carb & cam & manifold swapper.
2. There is definitely a difference between VSA ON and OFF in the stock ECU. This does not apply to WOT, it applies to any throttling.
3. In this thread I have seen, and made some good ****ysis of, the comparable torque curves. I approve of reflashing ECU's to improve torque and increase rpm limit, to give an improvement of 10% acceleration (see my ****ysis in the thread).
4. I do not approve of claims such as "improves rev hang", "improves dbw lag", "improves throttle response" without a very very precise definition of these effects when driving and how they affect driving.
5. If these effects are the same as the difference between VSA ON and OFF, then what I am saying is this .... as well as improving torque (which I approve of), are you simply making the VSA ON situation the same as VSA OFF ??
6. If 5 is not true, then have you tested driving with VSA ON and with VSA OFF, and if so, what is the new difference ??
it's like this
1. I am a Chartered Engineer who has spent a lot of time on automotive instrumentation and test beds in the 80's, so don't ***ume that I am some scrawny half-baked carb & cam & manifold swapper.
2. There is definitely a difference between VSA ON and OFF in the stock ECU. This does not apply to WOT, it applies to any throttling.
3. In this thread I have seen, and made some good ****ysis of, the comparable torque curves. I approve of reflashing ECU's to improve torque and increase rpm limit, to give an improvement of 10% acceleration (see my ****ysis in the thread).
4. I do not approve of claims such as "improves rev hang", "improves dbw lag", "improves throttle response" without a very very precise definition of these effects when driving and how they affect driving.
5. If these effects are the same as the difference between VSA ON and OFF, then what I am saying is this .... as well as improving torque (which I approve of), are you simply making the VSA ON situation the same as VSA OFF ??
6. If 5 is not true, then have you tested driving with VSA ON and with VSA OFF, and if so, what is the new difference ??
Interesting... Can't say I've ever really noticed much difference with/without VSA. Drove without the VSA for a while, to see what it was like shortly after buying the car. Obviously if you spin the wheels without VSA, the revs don't drop, but otherwise I can't say I've noticed much else. The characteristic of throttle response felt the same if memory serves.
I wouldn't condone driving with the VSA off (and neither does Honda!). You never know what the road is going to throw at you and in my experience the VSA has been a very positive thing to have on. It's saved my neck on an icy slope. Brought the car to a total stand still as I was slowly drifting towards a give way junction with my brakes on
. It's also intervened a few times when I've been caught out by gravel and leaves on the country road I drive down every day to work. I'm only talking 25mph corners, but sometimes tractors use this road and leave it covered in stuff you can't always preempt. Helped tuck the front in on the bend and kept the car good. I was not pouching things too hard at all, it was just one of those things that happens to the best of us from time to time. It's a very clever system and I'll overlook the occasional over zealous interference when pulling away quickly from a junction. The safety benefits well outweigh the drawbacks of occasional throttle interference. There's a reason they fit it on all of their vehicles!
I wouldn't condone driving with the VSA off (and neither does Honda!). You never know what the road is going to throw at you and in my experience the VSA has been a very positive thing to have on. It's saved my neck on an icy slope. Brought the car to a total stand still as I was slowly drifting towards a give way junction with my brakes on
. It's also intervened a few times when I've been caught out by gravel and leaves on the country road I drive down every day to work. I'm only talking 25mph corners, but sometimes tractors use this road and leave it covered in stuff you can't always preempt. Helped tuck the front in on the bend and kept the car good. I was not pouching things too hard at all, it was just one of those things that happens to the best of us from time to time. It's a very clever system and I'll overlook the occasional over zealous interference when pulling away quickly from a junction. The safety benefits well outweigh the drawbacks of occasional throttle interference. There's a reason they fit it on all of their vehicles!Cough, cough , 80s are in the past )) this system been developed late 90s early 2k's
Unfortunately , my english is too poor to explain you VSA logic and how i see it in code. In short, this is sleeping system and it only affects TB and braking system at given conditions ( combination of speed , , steering wheel position, cross acceleration, traction and so on ) so only when is "see" and decides that car loses its traction and course. The only preventive behavior it has - braking during too sharp and aggressive turns, traction is still ok but it use rear brakes to "help" you, for just in case ( wet road and so on ) I does not affect regular daily driving.
When i was far from digging in its logic and was just an aggressive car driver i wasnt able to find\feel any difference between on and off, off only allowed me to wheelspin as much as i want to, nothing more. No more power , no less lag, no any additional freedom. Same sluggish feeling of pillow on er pedal. You have DBW map ( compensation table ), its fixed and not adjustable like ignition or fuel base maps. VSA can only override my leg by fully closing TB when is see a wheelspin, 100% , not 2 or 10 or 19. Its bad logic which Hondata improved in their traction control.
You have to test it by yourself to feel and approve what chaps are talking bout, turn off your old exp coz its a new one here. We are talking you bout real things and you are trying to argue it with .... i dunno what to put here )) Go try it and save your keyboard lol !! Ill be happy to see ya among my customers then.
Just imagine what the difference sfai felt compared to current stuff he was already happy with so he decided to jump on it. I hope he will describe his new experience.
Unfortunately , my english is too poor to explain you VSA logic and how i see it in code. In short, this is sleeping system and it only affects TB and braking system at given conditions ( combination of speed , , steering wheel position, cross acceleration, traction and so on ) so only when is "see" and decides that car loses its traction and course. The only preventive behavior it has - braking during too sharp and aggressive turns, traction is still ok but it use rear brakes to "help" you, for just in case ( wet road and so on ) I does not affect regular daily driving.
When i was far from digging in its logic and was just an aggressive car driver i wasnt able to find\feel any difference between on and off, off only allowed me to wheelspin as much as i want to, nothing more. No more power , no less lag, no any additional freedom. Same sluggish feeling of pillow on er pedal. You have DBW map ( compensation table ), its fixed and not adjustable like ignition or fuel base maps. VSA can only override my leg by fully closing TB when is see a wheelspin, 100% , not 2 or 10 or 19. Its bad logic which Hondata improved in their traction control.
You have to test it by yourself to feel and approve what chaps are talking bout, turn off your old exp coz its a new one here. We are talking you bout real things and you are trying to argue it with .... i dunno what to put here )) Go try it and save your keyboard lol !! Ill be happy to see ya among my customers then.
Just imagine what the difference sfai felt compared to current stuff he was already happy with so he decided to jump on it. I hope he will describe his new experience.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Stevearcade said:Interesting... Can't say I've ever really noticed much difference with/without VSA. Drove without the VSA for a while, to see what it was like shortly after buying the car. Obviously if you spin the wheels without VSA, the revs don't drop, but otherwise I can't say I've noticed much else. The characteristic of throttle response felt the same if memory serves.
I wouldn't condone driving with the VSA off (and neither does Honda!). You never know what the road is going to throw at you and in my experience the VSA has been a very positive thing to have on. It's saved my neck on an icy slope. Brought the car to a total stand still as I was slowly drifting towards a give way junction with my brakes on
you might be confusing ABS with VSA.
I "learned" (the long experimentation process post-driving-test) to drive cars in snow and very wet roads without ABS or VSA. Also rally drivers don't use them, and in a lot of situations, cadence braking is actually better than ABS.
The throttle VSA is to prevent wheel spin. The Accord, being front-wheel-drive, will understeer in the snow and in the wet with VSA off. It will also prevent good acceleration when pulling away from rest. If you drive a powerful front-wheel-drive car from the 70's in the wet, you'll quickly get to know the predictability on the throttle. Same applies to rear-wheel-drive cars from the 60's and 70's.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
cough all you like, but the engineering that I was involved in was advanced design, a lot of which is now on the cars. There's nothing new in cars that is not in my automotive technical books from the 80'slittlebo said:
I know what this system does, and I know the mythology that is out there in the internet community, and I don't see any details in the rest of your response.
edit: btw, engineering = design by mathematics, then apply the mathematics to reality. Vehicle stability is described by mathematical equations.
There is a lot of mythology about "rev hang" and "dbw lag" .... where does this affect driving a car, how does it affect change of momentum of the car in any direction ????????
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
dinoc said:
OK, I'm hopefully going to put this nonsense to bed once and for all.
REV HANG
let's look at the myth of rev hang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfCVHujtDpM
We are here on a UK HONDA ACCORD FORUM, and no-one on here has ever mentioned this issue.
Also, I do not know if it has been mentioned on any other UK HONDA ACCORD FORUM
it may have been mentioned on UK Honda Civic Forums, but again I don't know.
The point is, it seems to be a myth that has come from the USA about Honda Civics in the USA. I suspect that the reason they have the problem could be related to Honda doing something to pass the model through emission testing in the USA, but I don't know any more than that and I don't give two hoots.
I have just been out in my car at this early hour while no other traffic is on the roads.
I have done so, in order to be absolutely sure of what I am about to say.
THERE IS NO REV HANG ON MY ACCORD WHEN OVER 3000 RPM.
REPEAT
THERE IS NO REV HANG ON MY ACCORD WHEN OVER 3000 RPM.
Below 3000 rpm, there is a minor rev hang. In fact, the revs increase slightly, then drop. But nothing as slow as in that youtube video above. And anyway, if it's below 3000 rpm, I don't give two hoots.
I have checked what I say with VSA ON and VSA OFF.
I have checked what I say in neutral.
I have checked what I say when driving in the first 5 gears at various throttle openings, at various aggressive throttle attacks, at various gear changes.
I suspect that it is there below 3000 rpm to get the model through emission testing in the EU.
DBW LAG
In neutral with VSA ON there is some DBW lag.
In neutral with VSA OFF there is NO DBW lag.
In first gear, take-off can be affected with VSA ON, but that is to be expected.
THROTTLE RESPONSE (mentioned in #180)
seems perfectly ok to me in stock form
MY CONCLUSION
The littlebo reflash could offer up to a 10% improvement in acceleration when made on a fully stock 7th gen pre-facelift Accord 2.4
If the claims that it improves DBW LAG and REV HANG are real, then it can only be based on anecdotal stories that differ from observations that I have personally made on my stock Accord in both normal and harsh driving conditions.
dinoc said:
can someone explain who is pushing which map on this forum ????
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
I've just been out again to check on the behaviour if you drive consevatively then suddenly switch to aggressive driving. For about the first 20 seconds there is a bit of rev hang at high rpm, but then it disappears. The rev hang below 3000 disappears too. When you switch back to conservative driving, the consistent rev hang below 3000 rpm comes back. It's adaptive control, something that was being researched in the late 80's and early 90's (as was CANbus, you guys just don't know how long it takes for something to get from R&D and end up in production cars). Basically, if you go aggressive with the throttle pedal, it adapts, depending on engine conditions. It seems to adapt better with VSA OFF too, but I'm not certain of that.
I just don't see what the fuss with rev hang is about, no idea why anyone would want to get rid of it, it seems benign and harmless on the K24. The cretin in that youtube video could probably get rid of that rev hang if he thrashed it for longer. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he knows this, he just seems to have a vendetta against Honda if you watch some of his other videos. I noticed a few similar civic videos on youtube, same approach, no long aggressive driving.
That's why this stuff is just myth. I don't know what cells you mess about with in the map to supposedly get rid of rev hang and dbw lag, but IMO there is no need.
Just remember, I have been driving this Accord since January 2006, which is over 8 years now, and you guys sound to me like you were still in school back then.
Please make sure to thoroughly read my post above (#192) ...it is related to this post.
I just don't see what the fuss with rev hang is about, no idea why anyone would want to get rid of it, it seems benign and harmless on the K24. The cretin in that youtube video could probably get rid of that rev hang if he thrashed it for longer. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he knows this, he just seems to have a vendetta against Honda if you watch some of his other videos. I noticed a few similar civic videos on youtube, same approach, no long aggressive driving.
That's why this stuff is just myth. I don't know what cells you mess about with in the map to supposedly get rid of rev hang and dbw lag, but IMO there is no need.
Just remember, I have been driving this Accord since January 2006, which is over 8 years now, and you guys sound to me like you were still in school back then.
Please make sure to thoroughly read my post above (#192) ...it is related to this post.
That's great, now please drive the test ECU and post your findings after, too.
You are not talking with kids here, I'm an engineer also, 39 years old, this is my forth Honda, previously had a tuned FN2, too, and the CL9 is driven since 2008.
And speaking about FN2, two things I would like the CL9 to have like FN2 has :
- a quicker steering rack (not sure how is it called in English, shorter steering ratio?)
- and the deceleration (engine brake?) of the FN2 while doing a downshift, the CL9 does not have that powerful deceleration like FN2 has.
As the first one is not achievable by any reflash, I'm wondering if the second one can be, or what involves to achieve that deceleration characteristic like the FN2 has.
You are not talking with kids here, I'm an engineer also, 39 years old, this is my forth Honda, previously had a tuned FN2, too, and the CL9 is driven since 2008.
And speaking about FN2, two things I would like the CL9 to have like FN2 has :
- a quicker steering rack (not sure how is it called in English, shorter steering ratio?)
- and the deceleration (engine brake?) of the FN2 while doing a downshift, the CL9 does not have that powerful deceleration like FN2 has.
As the first one is not achievable by any reflash, I'm wondering if the second one can be, or what involves to achieve that deceleration characteristic like the FN2 has.
Blimey Brian, I thought I stayed up late last night going to bed about 3am! I wasn't going for spirited midnight drives though, was doing paperwork for school .
Shame you had to round off such a detailed couple of posts with a personal snipe about age and experience. Kind of detracts from what you were trying to say buddy. Will only become the focus of the response and feed arguments and further sniping that don't relate to what you were talking about (DBW lag and Rev Hang Myths).
I've got some major A-Road driving to do today. The sun is shining, so I might pop the VSA off and see what I make of things. I don't consider rev hang to be an issue, but the DBW lag has niggled me since buying the car.
.Shame you had to round off such a detailed couple of posts with a personal snipe about age and experience. Kind of detracts from what you were trying to say buddy. Will only become the focus of the response and feed arguments and further sniping that don't relate to what you were talking about (DBW lag and Rev Hang Myths).
I've got some major A-Road driving to do today. The sun is shining, so I might pop the VSA off and see what I make of things. I don't consider rev hang to be an issue, but the DBW lag has niggled me since buying the car.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
^ the thing is Steve, I was perfectly ok with all of this right up until yesterday. Anyone who reads this thread will see that I was more-or-less behind it all, but these three are really pishing me off, right through this thread we get one of them, then a different one, then another one, and one never knows who one is talking to. #185, #188, #191 are patronising and do not answer any of my questions. They really do "sound" like they were still in school 8 years ago (that's not a snipe Steve, it's a truth). If dinoc is a 39-year-old engineer, then he should apply his abilities to my posts in a more thorough way.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
and if they want me specifically to test drive their ECU then I will gladly do that and give a very un-biased and quite possibly positive review. I am prepared to pay a deposit up-front, but I'm not prepared to pay for postage either direction to review something if I'm going to end up helping them to sell the product.
if they don't want me specifically, then just cease to say "test drive it" in nearly every darned post.
if they don't want me specifically, then just cease to say "test drive it" in nearly every darned post.
I'm not the developer of this I'm just a happy end user. So I can't answer to all your questions.
And frankly neither other famous developer like Hondata won't answer to all your questions.
And I still don't understand why don't you test it first and describe your findings after.
And frankly neither other famous developer like Hondata won't answer to all your questions.
And I still don't understand why don't you test it first and describe your findings after.
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
Because I don't see why, if I'm going to potentially help to sell a product, I should pay for postage. If I'm potentially going to give a negative review, I don't see why I should be paying for postage as a "penalty", nor should I necessarily expect any inducement either. But as a simple review, paying for postage is not on.dinoc said:
For example, when car mags review cars they don't hire the car, the car is delivered, they keep it for the review, then the car is collected.
If "get the ECU and try it" is the only argument remaining, then it's pointless to continue.
I've ****ysed the graphs, given a positive 10% improvement in acceleration comment, and then had to argue about "rev hang" and "dbw lag", and then go out and waste my time at night, and my money burning petrol, simply to write what you guys should/could have done.
Fair points all round. Now let's not got get wound up. We're people talking on the internet about drive by wire lag. It's really not worth losing tempers over .
I think Dinoc has a point, in so far as Hondata and other tuners would unlikely go into too much specifics of what they're changing and by how much, as others would just copy it and undercut prices. Obviously power gains can be shown with graphs, I'm not sure if other tuners can offer anymore than user reviews to ***ess such aspects as improved throttle characteristics...?
I think Brian has a fair point as things can get confusing with three or four people fielding questions simultaneously. Further to this, I think language barriers lead to misunderstandings and people mustn't be too quick to reply or take offence to a comment. Brian, if you're serious about reviewing this ECU, I suggest you speak via PM directly with either Littlebo and/or UKCL9. I'm sure they'll happily sort something out for you.
On a side note, if anyone finds a post/comment patronising remember we're on a forum and it's all in how you read it. Anyone's post could be read out in a patronising tone, but that's not necessarily how they're intended. Forums are all in the reading, so please don't let things wind you up. After all, this conversation is in part of the forum that is viewable to anyone in the free world (unregistered and registered users alike). People can make their own judgements of all of us...
So if you feel yourself getting wound up or worrying about someone attempting to paint you in a bad/condescended light, remember other people might be reading it thinking the same as you. I.e. don't think you're the only one seeing it your way and that you have to instantly reply in frustration to defend yourself. If someone calls you out for making an intelligent and informed comment, let them... They're the ones who'll look silly for calling you out despite the fact you've made a positive contribution.
It's been mentioned earlier, but just to clarify in case anyone is losing track of things, Littlebo developed the map, UKCL9 is his UK rep, Dinoc is his Romanian Rep, Fredoops is his Australian Rep. There are reviews of this map across various other forums and Facebook pages across the internet. They have not been given official endorsement/permission to trade on the forum as they're are a relatively new entity to us, however due to the long search of some on this forum for a K24 remap, we're watching this issue closely for developments and see how things pan out.
My opinion on this is, there seems to be a reasonable number of happy customers on the wider internet. Only a few members on this sight. I think some more reviews from known users on this forum would put at ease some of those who are unsure about this. I know UKCL9 and Fredoops were both customers before they were reps... Sfai already runs an XO map, but is testing the Littlebo ECU for comparison between a Piasini map and Littlebo's map. We're waiting to hear the feedback on this.
I'm passing through the South West in the Summer so will take one for the team and see what all the fuss is about. Report back afterwards. Brian, it would be interesting to get your thoughts on the map in driving. Contact Littlebo or UKCL9 via PM and see if they can come to an arrangement on the trial ECU .
This thread always seems to heat up quickly. Let's keep our heads guys.
.I think Dinoc has a point, in so far as Hondata and other tuners would unlikely go into too much specifics of what they're changing and by how much, as others would just copy it and undercut prices. Obviously power gains can be shown with graphs, I'm not sure if other tuners can offer anymore than user reviews to ***ess such aspects as improved throttle characteristics...?
I think Brian has a fair point as things can get confusing with three or four people fielding questions simultaneously. Further to this, I think language barriers lead to misunderstandings and people mustn't be too quick to reply or take offence to a comment. Brian, if you're serious about reviewing this ECU, I suggest you speak via PM directly with either Littlebo and/or UKCL9. I'm sure they'll happily sort something out for you.
On a side note, if anyone finds a post/comment patronising remember we're on a forum and it's all in how you read it. Anyone's post could be read out in a patronising tone, but that's not necessarily how they're intended. Forums are all in the reading, so please don't let things wind you up. After all, this conversation is in part of the forum that is viewable to anyone in the free world (unregistered and registered users alike). People can make their own judgements of all of us...
So if you feel yourself getting wound up or worrying about someone attempting to paint you in a bad/condescended light, remember other people might be reading it thinking the same as you. I.e. don't think you're the only one seeing it your way and that you have to instantly reply in frustration to defend yourself. If someone calls you out for making an intelligent and informed comment, let them... They're the ones who'll look silly for calling you out despite the fact you've made a positive contribution.
It's been mentioned earlier, but just to clarify in case anyone is losing track of things, Littlebo developed the map, UKCL9 is his UK rep, Dinoc is his Romanian Rep, Fredoops is his Australian Rep. There are reviews of this map across various other forums and Facebook pages across the internet. They have not been given official endorsement/permission to trade on the forum as they're are a relatively new entity to us, however due to the long search of some on this forum for a K24 remap, we're watching this issue closely for developments and see how things pan out.
My opinion on this is, there seems to be a reasonable number of happy customers on the wider internet. Only a few members on this sight. I think some more reviews from known users on this forum would put at ease some of those who are unsure about this. I know UKCL9 and Fredoops were both customers before they were reps... Sfai already runs an XO map, but is testing the Littlebo ECU for comparison between a Piasini map and Littlebo's map. We're waiting to hear the feedback on this.
I'm passing through the South West in the Summer so will take one for the team and see what all the fuss is about. Report back afterwards. Brian, it would be interesting to get your thoughts on the map in driving. Contact Littlebo or UKCL9 via PM and see if they can come to an arrangement on the trial ECU
.This thread always seems to heat up quickly. Let's keep our heads guys.
Jon_G
No Longer Active
These guys are making unproven claims and using shaky selling tactics. Homeopathic medicines and quack cures are sold this way, not properly designed engineering.
And it is confusing who is connected with the actual reflash selling, as Dinoc obviously does have a connection despite claiming in post #198 that he is 'just a happy end user'. Now that Steve has confirmed that Dinoc is Littlebo's Romanian representative, perhaps this should be seen as a dishonest statement? Or is this another language issue?
Personally, I would trust Brian's engineering judgement, trials and conclusions over these guys, who I have been deeply suspicious of since the start of this thread.
And it is confusing who is connected with the actual reflash selling, as Dinoc obviously does have a connection despite claiming in post #198 that he is 'just a happy end user'. Now that Steve has confirmed that Dinoc is Littlebo's Romanian representative, perhaps this should be seen as a dishonest statement? Or is this another language issue?
Personally, I would trust Brian's engineering judgement, trials and conclusions over these guys, who I have been deeply suspicious of since the start of this thread.
Points noted Jon. Perhaps Brian should test the ECU to see what's what in driving conditions.
Jon_G
No Longer Active
I certainly believe that proper unbiased feedback from someone such as Brian on both the fully measureable and 'less measureable' aspects of this reflash should be of interest to any K24 owner considering this service.
Maybe potential customers concerned about throttle response/DBW/lag, etc should experiment with VSA off?
Maybe potential customers concerned about throttle response/DBW/lag, etc should experiment with VSA off?
Dude, get a life, you don't even own a k24 and I still don't get your interferences on this topic.
And your ***umptions that we are here for cheating the others are totally OFENDING.
(If I won't be a happy customer I woundn't sell this to others, period)
I can ***ume also you are a troll from the competion (aka Piasini) to troll this topic ...how do you like that ?
Its up the ukcl9 and littleboo if they want Brian to review their ECU for totaly free (but if he is not interested in the reflash I don't see the point for this review ... just my opinion) as I have no deal on this forum.
And your ***umptions that we are here for cheating the others are totally OFENDING.
(If I won't be a happy customer I woundn't sell this to others, period)
I can ***ume also you are a troll from the competion (aka Piasini) to troll this topic ...how do you like that ?
Its up the ukcl9 and littleboo if they want Brian to review their ECU for totaly free (but if he is not interested in the reflash I don't see the point for this review ... just my opinion) as I have no deal on this forum.
Jon_G
No Longer Active
Dude, get a customer!
What is offensive is someone connected to the selling of something pretending to 'just be a happy end user' (your words, dude).
No, I don't have a K24. But I am a member of this club and I see no reason to simply stand by and watch you and your fellow salesmen make unproven claims about this reflash.
Am I am noticing some desperation creeping in, Dinoc?
What is offensive is someone connected to the selling of something pretending to 'just be a happy end user' (your words, dude).
No, I don't have a K24. But I am a member of this club and I see no reason to simply stand by and watch you and your fellow salesmen make unproven claims about this reflash.
Am I am noticing some desperation creeping in, Dinoc?
Dude, if you did not make the same comments on the other reflashes threads (for instant those made by Piasini on this forum - which by the way offers no information on their reflashes) than your opinions made on this thread are in pair with those from my previos post , you don not have unbiased opinion on this topic and your single purpose here is to troll this topic!
freddofrog
won 16.4k on Euro lottery :)
The way I see it is like this.
Let's ***ume that there were two companies offering a reflash for the same price
Company 1 ... this company offers just torque improvement and some increase in revs, and makes no other claims
Company 2 ... this company offers torque improvement and some increase in revs, and claims potential improvement in mpg, and has totally eliminated any rev hang and dbw lag
On a dyno measured at the wheels, the torque curves for Company 2 are also slightly better than the torque curves for Company 1. Both torque curves show a good improvement over the stock torque curves to the extent of about 10% improvement in acceleration over stock. Maybe Company 2 is about 1% better than Company 1.
To be honest, I would rather get the product that Company 1 is offering.
Let's ***ume that there were two companies offering a reflash for the same price
Company 1 ... this company offers just torque improvement and some increase in revs, and makes no other claims
Company 2 ... this company offers torque improvement and some increase in revs, and claims potential improvement in mpg, and has totally eliminated any rev hang and dbw lag
On a dyno measured at the wheels, the torque curves for Company 2 are also slightly better than the torque curves for Company 1. Both torque curves show a good improvement over the stock torque curves to the extent of about 10% improvement in acceleration over stock. Maybe Company 2 is about 1% better than Company 1.
To be honest, I would rather get the product that Company 1 is offering.
Well I have a real example with 3 customers who had the reflash from company 1 and switched to company 2 and they are happy.
In fact some of them have strong beliefs that they have been cheatted by company 1 (no rev limit ~8000 rpm, no rev limit on stand still either you could rev it all the way to the 8000 rpm, knocks , ...)
And a 4th real customer who had Hondata (Company 3) ECU and now is using Company 2 reflashed ECU (as he could not see a difference between both) but he prefered the last one because it doesn't have the Immobilizer issue which he had with the Hondata ECU.
If you like company 1 which has "knolwdge" for all the cars in the world (if you do buy that claim ) instead of a company who focuses on a single brand/model/engine ... then perhaps you deserve the products from company 1, then
You like company 1 which offeres no real information about their offerings , than go for it (the information about what they offer is on their web page - read it and see if you like it)
No other tunner will offer you the quantity of information you have received on this thread , and claiming you did not receive all the information you want, is not fair (compared with what the other tuners are offering).
And all this chit-chat theory without having tested something is I don't know ...
PS1> I've been asked privateley to stay away from this topic ... and I will respect the demand, but if you have more questions about reflash, feel free to PM , I've been a member on this forum long long time ago of this "issue", and my honest (not what that diesel onwer claims) purpose here was to share something good (a good reflash that some of us were waiting so long)
PS2> Steve please feel free to clean this thread as you consider - including my off-topic posts
In fact some of them have strong beliefs that they have been cheatted by company 1 (no rev limit ~8000 rpm, no rev limit on stand still either you could rev it all the way to the 8000 rpm, knocks , ...)
And a 4th real customer who had Hondata (Company 3) ECU and now is using Company 2 reflashed ECU (as he could not see a difference between both) but he prefered the last one because it doesn't have the Immobilizer issue which he had with the Hondata ECU.
If you like company 1 which has "knolwdge" for all the cars in the world (if you do buy that claim
) instead of a company who focuses on a single brand/model/engine ... then perhaps you deserve the products from company 1, then You like company 1 which offeres no real information about their offerings , than go for it (the information about what they offer is on their web page - read it and see if you like it)
No other tunner will offer you the quantity of information you have received on this thread , and claiming you did not receive all the information you want, is not fair (compared with what the other tuners are offering).
And all this chit-chat theory without having tested something is I don't know ...
PS1> I've been asked privateley to stay away from this topic ... and I will respect the demand, but if you have more questions about reflash, feel free to PM , I've been a member on this forum long long time ago of this "issue", and my honest (not what that diesel onwer claims) purpose here was to share something good (a good reflash that some of us were waiting so long)
PS2> Steve please feel free to clean this thread as you consider - including my off-topic posts
Jon_G
No Longer Active
In contrast, I'd like my comments to remain, particularly post #201. And I suggest dinoc's comments should remain, particularly post #198.
Hopefully it'll be obvious to all here that know me well, but I am not a Piasini spy/troll/undercover salesman. Nor am I currently selling anything, anywhere. And I have never made a post on TA using an alias... I promise!
I honestly don't doubt that littlebo's reflash has some merit, it's just that some of the additional claimed benefits have become vague, random and practically impossible to define/test/prove.
But, most importantly, anyone with a vested interest in selling services on our forum cannot be allowed to pose as 'just a happy end user'. This is unacceptable and must be challenged. And I wasn't thrilled about the same individual coming out with the 'dude, get a life' comment either... I'm guessing that in the event of a post-reflash problem he would likely exhibit a similar attitude when dealing with customer complaints? But hopefully ukcl9 offers better customer care?
Kind Regards,
"that diesel owner" :lol:
Hopefully it'll be obvious to all here that know me well, but I am not a Piasini spy/troll/undercover salesman. Nor am I currently selling anything, anywhere. And I have never made a post on TA using an alias... I promise!
I honestly don't doubt that littlebo's reflash has some merit, it's just that some of the additional claimed benefits have become vague, random and practically impossible to define/test/prove.
But, most importantly, anyone with a vested interest in selling services on our forum cannot be allowed to pose as 'just a happy end user'. This is unacceptable and must be challenged. And I wasn't thrilled about the same individual coming out with the 'dude, get a life' comment either... I'm guessing that in the event of a post-reflash problem he would likely exhibit a similar attitude when dealing with customer complaints? But hopefully ukcl9 offers better customer care?
Kind Regards,
"that diesel owner" :lol:
Since the troll diesel person involves my name I will keep respond ... until Steve cleans this s**** ...
Well you are still a "dude" as you have insinuated (FIRST) that we are here for cheatting (which is an OFEND to others not just me) .
Also you did not answer to the latest post where I've asked you if you DID post the same s**** on the piasini thread ,
because if you dind't , and just post your s**** here, than you are just acussing yourself and your troll is just obvious for all the readers.
Well you are still a "dude" as you have insinuated (FIRST) that we are here for cheatting (which is an OFEND to others not just me) .
Also you did not answer to the latest post where I've asked you if you DID post the same s**** on the piasini thread ,
because if you dind't , and just post your s**** here, than you are just acussing yourself and your troll is just obvious for all the readers.
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