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CDTI Problems Starting

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fsabrun

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2.2 cdti exec
Hi All

I'm having trouble starting my diesel Accord and any help appreciated.
Problem started about 2 weeks ago.

Noticed it was taking longer to crank & then start - around 5-7 seconds.
Then eventually would crank over but not start.

What I have found is that when the engine is completely cold, like first thing in the morning it will start after 5-7 second.
If I then switchoff straight away, it will continue to crank but not start. Sometimes after cranking for what seems forever it will start, other times it won't.

If I leave it for say a few hours & then try again will start 5-7 seconds later.
Usually used to start in 2-3 seconds.

What I have tried so far:

Full service with genuine Honda filter, last filter change 12 months ago - around 12 thousand miles.
EGR clean, not much build up to be fair but tried anyway.
Fuel rail change, second hand part, initially took a while to crank first time, was cranking then in a couple of seconds,
thought the problem was solved. As let car run for 10 mins, switched on & it started again almost instanly, however after a 45 mins drive last night, same problem as beforfe would not start.
Left car standing for 1.5 hours tried again, would not start.
Following morning started again after 5-7 seconds.

Consitently will start if left overnight the very first time, then if you try again it won't.
Have to use Easy Start to get it going.

Have booked it into Honda in Coventry but can't get them to look at it till coming Monday.
Was wondering if there was any other DIY tricks I can try before that.

Could it be Glow plugs?
However it started when completely cold.

Has had a new battery about 12 months ago. I fully charged the battery anyway as have been cranking it alot but no dice.
Getting no errors from OBD2 reader either.


Thanks in Advance
Farouk
 
I see you've fitted a replacement fuel rail, but nevertheless still worth checking that the rail over-pressure valve isn't leaking. Have a look at this very recent thread on the exact same subject... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23422-accord-2006-22-i-cdti-hot-starting-problem/

If the rail valve is OK then the next most likely reason would be that one (or more) of the injectors has developed an excessive 'leak back' flow, where too much fuel is being returned to the fuel tank via the injector lubrication path(s). The output flows from each injector (the top connections) need to be re-routed into individual containers and the collected quantities compared after running the engine for a short period.

I am horrified that you may be planning to take the car to a Honda dealer. I'd be worried that they'll simply swap very expensive parts until it seems to be running... you'll spend thousands! They don't sell or even hold the individual spares required to fix ***emblies such as the fuel rail or fuel pump, so instead sell the complete part (for £thousands). Go to a Bosch service centre or even an indy diesel specialist. Or - better still - perform your own checks on the fuel rail valve and (if necessary) the injectors.
 
Hi Jon

I was hoping to get a positive diagnosis from Honda & then get repaired elsewhere by getting the faulty part from a breakers or ebay.

Thanks for the link to the thread. I suspect the fuel rail is ok, as have changed it & the same symptoms persist.
Would be unlucky if the replacement had the same problem.

How do I test the leak back form the injectors?
As that's my suspicion now.

Do you think I should rule out the glow plugs altogether? The light for the glow plugs is going off as normal after a couple of seconds at start.
 
As you said, a glow plug problem would be more likely if the problem was starting from cold. I agree with what you say about the fuel rail swap, but I'm always keen to avoid taking anything for granted!

If you let a dealer run diagnostics (e.g. connect up their Honda Diagnostic System), then this alone won't pinpoint which part is actually faulty. ***uming that the root cause of your problem is excessive fuel leak-back to the fuel tank (because of either the rail pressure valve or a worn injector), then all that dealer diagnostics would discover is that the fuel rail is failing to reach the required pressure during cranking (300 bar target, but a 200 bar minimum before the ECU will allow the injectors to operate)... So it would remain unclear which part to replace. Someone really needs to connect up some tubing and make some ***essments of fuel flow back to the fuel tank to rule out the relatively common issues of the rail valve and/or injectors having too much leakage.

If you can be sure that the problem isn't the rail valve (by far the most common problem) then you need to check the injectors like I explained in my previous post... the tank returns on each injector come out of the top connection on the injector bodies, in normal use these are 'daisy-chained' from left to right by dark-coloured flexi-pipes to form a single return line to the fuel tank. All these connections need to be removed and replaced by individual pipes that will run the separate injector flows into individual containers so that an ***essment can be made (comparison of the 4 volumes to whichever is the least) and any injector with a substantially greater a flow rate than it's siblings will need to be replaced or refurbished (contrary to popular belief they do come out fairly easily). There are vidclips available on YouTube on doing this, have a search for 'injector leak off' or 'injector leak back'.
 
Hi Jon

Was waiting for the injector leak off kit to arrive.
Whilst waiting did the test on the fuel rail & no fuel came out, so that looks good.

Also tried testing the glow plugs. When we removed a couple of the glow plugs these were damp, wet with oily residue. Could be fuel.
Not sure. Any ideas why this might be?

Anyway with the glow plug out, tried to see if it would glow but nothing.

Tested the glow plug by connecting wires to the battery & it started to glow. So could this be a faulty glow plug relay?
Or am I testing it wrong.

Basically took out one glow plug, it was still connected, turned ignition key, waited for light to go out & checked the glow plug but nothing?

Did the injector test & 1 injector filled about half a bottle full, the other 3 were hardly anything.
So definitely looks like 1 injector is leaking, I would have thought the other 3 would have had some fuel but barely anything.
Is this normal?

Anyone done a similar test?

Anyway have ordered an injector from ebay but was still concerned about the no glow on glow plug.

Any pointers appreciated.

Thanks
 
It's good that you appear to have found a duff injector. Good luck on getting the old one out, somewhere here there's a thread where I described removing and refitting mine. It's not a bad job, but you'll need a new gasket and a decent T30 torx bit. The replacement injector will need it's 6-digit IQA code entering into the EACH in due course, but not urgent.

Glow plugs are funny things! Their 'on' period has very little to do with the dash light, that's just a warning to the driver. I wouldn't be surprised if the circuit even functions when it's not winter. I never wait while starting my car unless it's sub-zero. You've checked the glowplugs are working, but best way to test the circuit, including relay, is to check that voltage is present on the glow plug connection when starting on a cold day.
 
Ok, thanks Jon.

Yes was wondering if there was a DIY on removing the injector.
Do you know which gasket I need or can point me in the right direction here?

Thanks for all your help.
 
Was using phone earlier; too difficult to post links.

Post #7 of this thread is how I removed my injectors, I actually had to remove all four but they all came out without too much struggle... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/17379-diesel-injector-removal/#entry191037

Post #67 of this thread is how I put them back in. Some care is required and it isn't unusual for refitted injectors to have gasket/seal problems because the dirt wasn't properly cleared up and no inspection was made of the cleaned-up seat. After cleaning up you may need to have a seat recut if the seat looks badly worn, but I didn't... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/4542-injector-issues/page-4#entry195858

As per the thread, I bought the replacement copper gasket from Holdcroft Honda. You could probably get one a lot cheaper from eBay but you do hear stories about them not being the correct thickness and therefore failing. Unfortunately Lings Honda Parts website isn't working, so I can't look up the gasket part number.
 
freddofrog said:
Lings have changed something so that older direct links no longer work, you have to start afresh from the beginning ;)

http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__3310&block_03=524&block_05=hcr

16472RBDE00
Click to expand...
£7 (plus VAT)... ouch!

I think I paid around £5 each (inc. VAT) from HH with our forum discount. But not sure about the postage.

Cox Honda are pretty reasonable too... http://www.coxmotorparts.co.uk/genuine-honda-ictdi-idtec-injector-seal-p-5367.html
 
fsabrun said:
Fab! Thanks Jon.

I hope my injector comes out easy like yours.
Click to expand...
There's no reason why it shouldn't come out easily. Threads I've read on Honda forums about removal problems have been where the seal was previously blowing and the resulting blow-by had caused the injector to become caked into its recess. I was a little worried too, but all four came out with no trouble (perhaps because the engine was warmed up and/or because I used the 'redneck' method of slightly loosening each injector clamp bolt with the engine running, which some would warn against). Do not loosen any other part of the diesel system with the engine running!

When refitting the Torx clamp bolt it has to be firstly tightened to 4 lb.ft and then tightened a further 90 degrees. But probably best to get detailed info like this by accessing the Honda service manual, made available by Freddofrog in this thread... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/19286-haynes-us-accord-workshop-manuals/page-2#entry242960 or use this web link to a Civic manual (enter 'injector' into search, then select 'Injector Replacement (N22A)', then click on the grey box in part 1 of the installation procedures to open up schematic featuring tightening torques)... http://joe-esm.azurewebsites.net/

Do carefully clean out the bolt hole using a cotton bud before fitting that clamp bolt, as I did initially mess up the tightening one of mine because the hole had become filled with oil/fuel/WD40 (as mentioned in my linked thread).
 
Thanks again Jon, your help has been invaluable!

I just hope we can get it back on the road, as am getting tired with this car!
It now refuses to start at all unless I use easy start.
Have been driving like this for over two weeks now..and I hope this solves itt, otherwise i'm going ot have to replace her.
 
I'm pretty sure that the replacement injector will fix this, but still looking forward to you reporting back with good news!
 
Hi Jon

Did exactly as you did. Sprayed with WD-40 & it wriggled free quite easily.
Pleasantly suprised! Changed the injector, waited with baited breath and.... boom.. it started!! ;)
Over the moon, result! Has been driving fine, since.

Thank you very much for all your invaluable ***istance! :) :) :)
 
Great result

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk
 
How much was the replacement injector?

Where did you get the injector copper gasket from in the end, and how much was it?

Have you entered that new injector's 6-digit IQU code to the ECU yet?
 
Hi Jon

I got 2 injectors for £70 off eBay.
They were being sold as a pair and I thought having the extra might in handy.

One of the injectors had a gasket come with it and looked good so didn't need to replace.

No haven't coded as yet. Heard mixed things. Some say if it's a used injector, no need to code.
I don't know but it seems to be running fine at the moment.
 
You should have it coded to ensure that the ECU uses the calibration for that injector, as they are all different. But, within a small limit, the ECU is able to compensate for minor imbalance (however it only does this at idle).
 
A Honda dealer will use a Honda HDS/HIM, there's a few of us have clones that can do it, we'd all be prepared to do it for free.
 
Thanks, that's a very kind offer. I'm in warwickshire if anyone's not too far, drop me a message..
I was also thinking of asking a mechanic friend to see if he could possibly do it with the software he has.
 
Im in east london but if you drive down or meet half way happy to carry out

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk
 
Warwickshire must be one of the weirdest shaped counties LOL
I'm sending you a PM
 
honda_saj said:
Im in east london but if you drive down or meet half way happy to carry out

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Thanks Saj
I was in London a few weeks ago bit if I do come down that way in the near future & it still needs doing,'ll give you a shout! The offer is much appreciated.
 
fsabrun said:
Thanks Saj
I was in London a few weeks ago bit if I do come down that way in the near future & it still needs doing,'ll give you a shout! The offer is much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Not a problem mate

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