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2.4 type s tourer boot lid

Haha I see the engineering fault finding solutions have gone out the window. Now just wack it open!
It might help with a solution to fix it
 
My boot lid is the same, powers down but not up.

As far as I'm aware there is a clutch mech on the tailgate motor and this slips due to grease contamination. Mine has been like this since I bought the car 4 years ago so I just lift if manually. Still powers down due to not having to lift the weight of the boot.

I did replace the struts twice though, first time I had the originals regassed but these only worked for a few months before failing again (wouldn't hold the weight of the boot lid). After this I replaced them with cheapos from GSF and they've been fine since. However, the power lift still doesn't work.
 
Well as said I've ordered a new complete motor unit from eBay from a 2006 (hopefully they fixed the grease problem by then)
But once I've fitted that I'll have a play and see if it's possible to fix the existing clutch, hopefully the friction plate won't be worn. I'm going to try and give it a good degreasing however the clutch is a sealed unit so I'm not holding out too much hope.
 
If the replacement one fixes the problem, then best to just chisel the old one open to see what it's like inside and to see how it was sealed
 
The new one turned up today! Hopefully there will be enough day light tomorrow to get it changed!
 
or just leave it to the weekend ?

I just wish you were a lot closer LOL

btw I still haven't gone anywhere near doing mine, I tested it today, still needs a tiny little pull, it even squealed a bit when I didn't :eek:
 
Haha first time I had parked on a hill today and tried it. Opened no problem, I'm 99.9% it's the clutch in the motor. Interesting that on this new motor from an 06 the bolts are a different colour, still the same size but at least it shows there is some difference.

If I manage to somehow fix the clutch you have to sort it!
 
adam123 said:
If I manage to somehow fix the clutch you have to sort it!
Click to expand...
would be nice ;)

but if you have to damage it to get it apart and then say how it can be taken apart without damaging it, I'd be giving it a go on mine
 
I'm going to go along the lines of trying a good scrupulous and heavy degreasing of the clutch first.
I'll hook up a 12v feed and do a few tests before and see if I can get it to slip. Strip it down degrease it heavily and test again. If that fails I'll strip it apart lol.

Such a shame my current motor mechanism isn't worth a penny with a knackered clutch
 
adam123 said:
Such a shame my current motor mechanism isn't worth a penny with a knackered clutch
Click to expand...
does it need a clutch though ?

yeah I know, in the world of numpties it does,

But with users like us who understand these tailgates, if we eliminate the clutch then the problem is gone and it will be fine while we remain the owners/uers of the car. I'm not sure what would happen to the motor though if someone else tried to use the tailgate and it got jammed. iMO a better idea from Honda would have been an over-current detector on the motor, with a relay that opened (and in a position in the roof that was easy to replace too).
 
What's the purpose of the over current device? Would you want that to detect an over current on the motor in the event of somebody closing the tailgate manually and then switch a relay to power the motor up to complete the action?

You could theoretically bypass the clutch but you wouldn't be able to close or open the tailgate manually. The clutch disengages the motor for manual operation so you would have to use the fob.
 
No, I was ***uming that the motor gearing was not very high, so the motor would spin with no power on the armature when manually opened. The over-current protection would be needed for the motor if in a stalled state i.e. tailgate jammed and no clutch.

But now you mention another reason for the clutch .... manual opening of the tailgate ....then I suppose the gearing is high, a worm-drive even (you've seen it, so it's a question) ?

So there must be two reasons for the clutch
1. clutch not electrically engaged when manually opened
2. clutch electrically disengages if the tailgate does not open ? ....see circuit below "POWER TAILGATE SENSOR" ?

0007c_zpsfa5441f9.jpg
 
The motor is a worm drive yes.

That diagram doesn't show what controls/switches the clutch though? It could be something else disengaging the clutch but we don't know?

I'm ***uming there is a time delay for the motor if the sensors haven't picked up the tailgate opening it stops trying. Dropping the feed to both the clutch and motor
 
well the clutch and motor are both controlled directly from the tailgate ECU, it's that "POWER TAILGATE SENSOR" which is the unknown thing ....4 wires to it.
Maybe it does measure armature current ?
Or maybe it measures the position or rate-of-change on the main rack or in the worm-drive ?
 
Internally in the motor and gearing there are no position sensor or anything of that sort we just have the 12v feed to the clutch. There is however in total 3 plugs on the whole unit. Having looked at it I'd say it would have to be armature current. When I get the old one out I'll strip it right down with pictures so you can see for your self
 
adam123 said:
Internally in the motor and gearing there are no position sensor or anything of that sort we just have the 12v feed to the clutch. There is however in total 3 plugs on the whole unit. Having looked at it I'd say it would have to be armature current. When I get the old one out I'll strip it right down with pictures so you can see for your self
Click to expand...
I now suspect that there are probably two "Hall effect" sensors inside the motor, to detect rotation speed and rotation direction of the motor shaft.

In one of the other threads I'd put several screenshots from the HDS tailgate functional tests. One screenshot shows the tailgate closing after having pressed the "close" button on the tailgate (the keyfob does not work with HDS connected, so I could not test tailgate opening).

07data_list_closing.jpg


Amongst other things, you can see that
1. Power Tailgate Drive Clutch Command = ON
2. Power Tailgate Drive Motor Command = CLOSE
3. Power Tailgate Drive Motor PulseA = DETECT
4. Power Tailgate Drive Motor PulseB = DETECT

This ties in with the circuit diagram in #73

i.e. the ECU can energise the clutch (1) and it can turn the motor in either direction (2)
The "POWER TAILGATE SENSOR" provides two sets of pulses, PulseA (3) & PulseB (4)

It's very probable that the motor should spin at constant speed, and the ECU will remove power from the motor if the Pulses provide errors in either of two situations
(i) the clutch slips and motor spins too fast
(ii) the clutch does not slip and the motor stalls

So I reckon that you'll find two Hall effect sensors inside the motor
 
If I'm right, then another possible solution would be to make an electronic circuit that provides the correct pulses on D3, D4 or D7, D8, or whatever ...... the circuit would come on when power is detected in D3 etc.

Then even if the clutch slips, the motor will keep spinning and maybe the clutch would provide enough torque to pull the tailgate far enough open.

Possible fire risk though :lol:
 
You're bang on the money! Now I've read that I've remembered that in between the motor and the clutch there is some sort of rotary contact system. I can't for the life of me remember exactly what it looks like but there is something there providing the pulse. But I'm not sure why the clutch slipping would put the pulses out of sync as it's on the motor side of the clutch.
 
because the motor should spin at a constant speed (or within a limited speed range)
i.e. the Pulses provide an indication of motor speed (and direction too)

if the clutch slips then the motor will spin too fast, which is an error condition

or if the clutch does not slip and the motor stalls, that is also an error condition
 
Yep got it.

Such a shame we know all this yet both us still don't have a working tailgate!

After this I think you need to do a be all and end all thread of tailgate problems
 
there on there way possable tomorrow fingers crossed all I need then is to find some kind soul to hold up the hatch while I fit them
 
Haha the gas strut on the right should be simple enough but I don't envy you with the one on the left
 
Haha well I'm booked in at the garage of 'dad' in the morning to use his wide variety of tools to get this motor changed!!! Whoop whoop
 
Ye tailgate is fine although I've got the new motor on mine. But I've tested the other one and it's perfect, I've only got the new one on mine incase they fixed the grease problems and didn't want to risk it ever happening again.
 
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