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Alignment Frustrations

jayok

jayok

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Location
Ireland
Car
CRV / S2000
Are the Gen 7 Accord particularly difficult to align? The reason I ask is I am really, really struggling to get a very simple requirement: when the steering wheel is straight the car goes straight with no pull.

Now, I am fully aware of road camber, wheel castor, thrust angle, toe, etc and I've been to 4 separate garages for full 4-wheel laser alignments with different levels of success but I've had no joy from someone who can actually get it 100% bang on. Typically the steering wheel is either +10 or -10 degrees off the centre with various levels of pull (depending on the person who aligns it) Now, I've heard all the usual, oh it the crown on the road, the tyre, etc and I understand these will have a small effect, but point blank when I put the steering wheel straight the car most definitely heads towards the left - not just drift.

Now, ***uming that the 4 separate garages are not all using numpties to do alignments, is there something particular with the Accord? I've had the suspension checked all it all seems fine, tyre pressure is fine. No vibration from the car at speed, etc. It does tramline as expected, but this is generally not an alignment problem.

Could there be anything else? The car has only 74K miles?

This is really p***ing me off. What's worse, it only became an issue when I asked if the alignment could be checked when getting the tyres replaced, it was felt fine prior to the original garage saying it was out and I only asked to check.
 
I'm not expert when it comes to alignment, my advise If it started after a tyre change, then back track... remove tyres and get them fitted again, balanced, make sure tyre pressures are constant per axle and the tyre rotation is correct.

camber is not adjustable, I wouldn't say the accord is hard to align properly. were the printouts showing correct alignment before/after?
 
Salim said:
I'm not expert when it comes to alignment, my advise If it started after a tyre change, then back track... remove tyres and get them fitted again, balanced, make sure tyre pressures are constant per axle and the tyre rotation is correct.

camber is not adjustable, I wouldn't say the accord is hard to align properly. were the printouts showing correct alignment before/after?
Click to expand...

I don't think it started after the tyre change, I think it started after the guy who done the tyre change decided the alignment was out. The fronts were worn and needed to be replaced as normal, however I can't go back to the old tyres as these have since been recycled and I'm stuck with the new ones. :(
 
As Salim said really mate also what alignment machine was used as the best out there is a hunter so might be worth checking.
 
brett said:
As Salim said really mate also what alignment machine was used as the best out there is a hunter so might be worth checking.
Click to expand...

No idea of the alignment machine, but wasn't a hunter (after looking at the online catalogue of them). I must go looking for one now.

This will be the literally the 10th time it's been up on a ramp to try and get the alignment right....
 
It's worth traveling to get your car on a hunter IMO.
I had the same issues on my car and also the rear inside tyres were worn.
My car went on a hunter and it was like driving the car from new again.
 
brett said:
It's worth traveling to get your car on a hunter IMO.
I had the same issues on my car and also the rear inside tyres were worn.
My car went on a hunter and it was like driving the car from new again.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I read your exploits with interest.... good to know you got it sorted in the end.

Hunter's machines don't seem that common over here unfortunately. But somebody must have them.
 
Jason have a good look on the net as you said there is prob one somewhere
 
brett said:
Jason have a good look on the net as you said there is prob one somewhere
Click to expand...

Ok, found one, it's about 65 miles away, but at this point, I'd travel!
 
I had mine done on Friday on a hunters machine and it has really sorted out my Accords twitchy steering. Its a noticeable improvement.

Mine was not a lot out but the small adjustments they did made a big improvement.

The cost would have been £65 but because the rear camber is non adjustable they only charged £30
 
Good stuff Neal most of the garages with a hunter charge £15 pounds per adjustment so you had a great price there mate.
 
brett said:
Good stuff Neal most of the garages with a hunter charge £15 pounds per adjustment so you had a great price there mate.
Click to expand...


i was not expecting much to be honest but it has defo made the steering less erratic and made the car a joy to drive again.
 
Guys I heard that Kwick fit are getting hunter alignment machines nation wide so might be worth a look.
It all depends in the guy using the machine I would say.
 
I recall something about a self centering reset that Honda do, I think it is a plug in job though, not something you can do at home. I could be wrong on this, best to get advice off one of the honda techs on this one.
 
jmcg said:
I recall something about a self centering reset that Honda do, I think it is a plug in job though, not something you can do at home. I could be wrong on this, best to get advice off one of the honda techs on this one.
Click to expand...

Curious, the steering is a mechanical linkage all the way, supplemented by a power steering pump. Unless this was for an electric power steering system?
 
Had the same problem on my wifes CR-V for a long time, had it aligned many times and had the wheels balanced an equal amount of times but still it persisted to pull to the left. I put it down to the mileage in the end as its on 217,000 !!!

Anyway, took it for an m.o.t last month and the guy laughed when he saw the mileage and the year 1998. It doesnt look like its done half the mileage but the guy thought it was gonna be an epic fail. The verdict ............................

PASSED with just a couple of advisories, one of which was a small amount of rust on the shock mounts the other was the front tires. Cut a long story short, it was the tires causing the problem all along. Asked my wife if everything was ok with the car a week after having the tires done and she says its great again now and drives exactly like her dads which is the same year but with 70,000 on the clock. It just never occured to me that the tires themselves would be causing the prob.

Moral of the story dont laugh at a 217,000 mile Honda!! :lol: plus the engine is one of the quietest vtecs ive heard on tick over?!

:lol:
 
Road camber often causes vehicles to drift gently to the left (but was more of an issue before power steering) and is worsened by poor steering alignment, particularly excessive toe-in.
 
Jon_G said:
Road camber often causes vehicles to drift gently to the left (but was more of an issue before power steering) and is worsened by poor steering alignment, particularly excessive toe-in.
Click to expand...

The gentle drift to the left is there, it's just that the steering wheel doesn't sit straight. If I let the wheel return to a resting position (via the castor setting) it settles with the steering wheel off centre. If I hold the wheel straight the car most definately heads left, not pull. It just looks like a poor alignment job, but the again, so many have had a go.

I'm waiting to get to a Hunter tracking system.
 
Obviously an alignment adjustment is needed, but as a temporary fix you can add 3-4psi to the front left. This will offset the pull to the left, and maybe cancel it out all together. This is not a solution, but it solves the pull till its fixed.
 
Howdy, just reading your exploits, and firstly am just wondering what size rim's you're running on and what tyres you put on them. My car was standard on 17's from factory and on a cambered road i always had a pull to the left, depending on road camber obviously.

I recently upgraded the tyres my wheels to 18's but fit the honda lowering kit too, and was expecting the same type of pull on a cambered road...but no, it's completely gone and so is the tramlining. I personaly think it's the suspension setup that doesn't help it, as if i had just went to 18's without the lowering kit, then i'd still have the tramlining effect and camber pull effect.

BTW, when I fit the kit i used these guys to do a wheel alignment afterwards.
http://www.tyresdublin.ie/tyreswalkinstown.php

The one I used are based in Ballymount, Walkinstown. They are actually just across the road from the advance pitstop. not sure where the Finglas one is.
 
jayok said:
The gentle drift to the left is there, it's just that the steering wheel doesn't sit straight. If I let the wheel return to a resting position (via the castor setting) it settles with the steering wheel off centre. If I hold the wheel straight the car most definately heads left, not pull. It just looks like a poor alignment job, but the again, so many have had a go.

I'm waiting to get to a Hunter tracking system.
Click to expand...

Right, I've now read your post properly! I don't think you have an actual 'alignment' problem, what's happened is where an alignment (tracking) adjustment has been undertaken, the necessary toe-in/toe out correction was achieved by adjusting the effective track rod length on one side only. This is perfectly OK, but will lead to the steering wheel becoming off-centred. A while back this would have been corrected by removal of the steering wheel and rotating it on it's splines until at the straight-ahead position. I haven't done this on an Accord, so can't directly advise on the wisdom of doing this (probably not so easy with wiring looms and the airbag to consider). It may be easier to ask an alignment specialist to balance out the track rod length adjustments to achieve a straight-ahead steering wheel, but - in my experience - they wouldn't normally bother, so I'm guessing that you may have to pay extra for this to be done.

I would look into how easy it will be to remove, align and replace the streering wheel.

Jon
 
Jon im no expert but by the looks of thing the adjustment on my steering was separate but it is an 8th gen.
Please correct if im wrong :) Here is a copy of my hunter alignment.

scan0002.jpg
 
brett said:
Jon im no expert but by the looks of thing the adjustment on my steering was separate but it is an 8th gen.
Please correct if im wrong :) Here is a copy of my hunter alignment.

scan0002.jpg
Click to expand...

Brett, that's a useful report - toe in/out alignment is clearly identified individually for each front wheel with reference to a straight ahead steering wheel (rather than a simple wheel to wheel reference). This would then result in correct alignment AND a straight ahead steering wheel, so no need to then adjust the steering wheel position.

Jason - I'd be pretty confident that a Hunter alignment will put right your problem. Unless perhaps you're planning to have it done at KwikFit?

Jon
 
Jon_G said:
Jason - I'd be pretty confident that a Hunter alignment will put right your problem. Unless perhaps you're planning to have it done at KwikFit?
Click to expand...

Hi Jon - thanks for the reply.

Re the steering wheel centre, I think removing the wheel and resetting it on the splines won't help much. Support there's 30 splines on the wheel. That means each spline will move the wheel by (360/30 =) 12 degrees. If the wheel is 5 degrees off in one direction then you'll move it 7 degress in another! I've tried this before on our Honda Stream - agree it's much better to get the tracking done right.

At this point I'm committed to having it done on a Hunter machine, the nearest being 1 hour away. So I'm planning on doing that on Thursday - I'll keep you all posted.
 
Keep us posted Jason I'm very interested in your results as a hunter sorted mint out
 
All alignment places lock your steering in ahead position so I don't Think that will cause the problem. Its worth checking bushes too, such as compliance bush.
 
jayok said:
Curious, the steering is a mechanical linkage all the way, supplemented by a power steering pump. Unless this was for an electric power steering system?
Click to expand...

I've had a look at the manual again and you are right, there is a torque sensor for the electric power steering setup and it is this that requires a reset.
My own horse suffers the same fate though, steering always seems to come to rest just pointing left a bit, and as you say it is not pulling left it's just that the steering 'rests' there, when held centre, the car travels straight ahead no problem. let us know if you find a solution?
 
Right so - an update.

I undertook the 140 mile round trip to my nearest Hunter machine and it was a Hunter Hawkeye model. Spoke to the guy about my experiences and he said he'd certainly take a look. On the checking the alignment of the car the machine reported that all was ok and everything was within tolerance - I nearly cried.

While I was staring in disbelief at the numbers on the machine (which were all bang on) the mechanic then sat in the car and became a hero by saying, "Hmm... but the steering isn't 100% correct, I mean it's probably 99%, but not 100%, I'll adjust that so". So he went back to the Hunter machine and done a WinToe or Win2Toe or something calibration. This basically is a process on the Hunter units to correct for small adjustments in the wheel centring. It measures the correct alignment and then records the position, it then asks the mechanic to centre the steering wheel in the cabin and records the difference, from there it then advises him on how much of the front toe to adjust. He completed the adjustment and the machine recheck all alignments, everything reported green.

Cautiously optimistic, we went off for a test drive and the steering is 100% bang-on, no pull no drag at the wheel. Perfect, finally! I am delighted.

It got even better then, while there I noticed had a car with a clutch out and asked if he done changes. He said he did and had done quite a few Honda Civics, good bit of work he said, you really have to drop the subframe. I asked then could you not slide it out from the side and he replied he'd done that once and what he saved in time he lost in awkwardness. The Accord he said was the same. Asking then, if I supplied parts would he do my Accord, he replies "Sure", and then goes, "You'll need to get me some Honda MTF though, I've only two bottles left!" So, finally, I found a mechanic that gets it!


So moral of the story, if you want to get your alignment done, track down a Hunter machine. If the guy is worth his salt he'll be able to do that WinToe thing and make it perfect.

<edit> Oh and to give credit to him, it was Kevin in Devoy's of Carlow http://devoysgarage.net/
 
Great stuff, Its nice when you find a decent guy to do the job even if it is a little trek.
 
jayok said:
Right so - an update.

I undertook the 140 mile round trip to my nearest Hunter machine and it was a Hunter Hawkeye model. Spoke to the guy about my experiences and he said he'd certainly take a look. On the checking the alignment of the car the machine reported that all was ok and everything was within tolerance - I nearly cried.

While I was staring in disbelief at the numbers on the machine (which were all bang on) the mechanic then sat in the car and became a hero by saying, "Hmm... but the steering isn't 100% correct, I mean it's probably 99%, but not 100%, I'll adjust that so". So he went back to the Hunter machine and done a WinToe or Win2Toe or something calibration. This basically is a process on the Hunter units to correct for small adjustments in the wheel centring. It measures the correct alignment and then records the position, it then asks the mechanic to centre the steering wheel in the cabin and records the difference, from there it then advises him on how much of the front toe to adjust. He completed the adjustment and the machine recheck all alignments, everything reported green.

Cautiously optimistic, we went off for a test drive and the steering is 100% bang-on, no pull no drag at the wheel. Perfect, finally! I am delighted.

It got even better then, while there I noticed had a car with a clutch out and asked if he done changes. He said he did and had done quite a few Honda Civics, good bit of work he said, you really have to drop the subframe. I asked then could you not slide it out from the side and he replied he'd done that once and what he saved in time he lost in awkwardness. The Accord he said was the same. Asking then, if I supplied parts would he do my Accord, he replies "Sure", and then goes, "You'll need to get me some Honda MTF though, I've only two bottles left!" So, finally, I found a mechanic that gets it!


So moral of the story, if you want to get your alignment done, track down a Hunter machine. If the guy is worth his salt he'll be able to do that WinToe thing and make it perfect.

<edit> Oh and to give credit to him, it was Kevin in Devoy's of Carlow http://devoysgarage.net/
Click to expand...

Told you hunters were bang on good result Jason ;)
 
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