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Another starting problem :-(

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bob157

New Member
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Location
Kent
Car
Accord Tourer
New member here :)
I appreciate that there is another thread on starting problems but I suspect mine may be a little different.
I have a 57 Accord Tourer 2.2i CTDi Ex with 110,000 miles
I have limited mechanical knowledge :(
Problem started when engine was hot. Engine would need cranking a few times before starting. After a long run it then decided not to start at all and I had to call out the RAC who started it with Easy Start. Took it into the garage who couldn't find any problems but changed the fuel filter. Apparently despite the fact that previously it has been regularly serviced by a Honda main dealer, it didn't look like it had been changed recently. Filter change made no difference and it has happened twice more with RAC coming out once and garage (non Honda) once. Easy Start both times. They have tried a new crank sensor and fitted an EGR.
Garage has now had it for 2 weeks trying several other things (it's owned by my next door neighbour ! ) including a new fuel pump which they borrowed but it made no difference. It now has problems starting hot and cold
Apparently they are currently waiting for a call from a Honda Technical specialist.
Any advice from anyone as to where else they could look for a solution would be greatly appreciated.
Are there any recommended Honda specialists in Kent?
Thanks in advance
 
Hey Rob and welcome to the forums. Have just bought an accord myself and did all manner of research before buying. One of the most common faults on diesels for starting in general is a weak battery. May be worth getting this checked. I would go for a honda battery if you do decide to replace it however. Although the symptoms you are descrining doesn't nessecarily point that way may be something worth looking into.Cheers. Martyn
 
The Honda technical specialist you mentioned should have access to (and hopefully use) a Honda Diagnostic System (HDS), which will give specific information on the operating conditions of your engine (giving a full ****ysis and allow engine parameters to be modified)... much more so than a simple OBD2 reader or even a Snap-On machine.

At a guess, I suggest your fuel rail is failing to reach a minimum pressure during starter cranking, so the ECU is not allowing the injectors to operate. There are a number of reasons for this on the i-CTDi (weak battery already mentioned) but another common issue can be excessive injector leak-back. This is fairly easy to measure by disconnecting the fuel tank return lines and diverting them into containers so that the flow can be observed and measured (look for the one that seems to be passing much more fuel that the others, for example). Once the engine is running then the fuel pump generates enough pressure/flow to compensate for this loss so the engine usually runs OK.

Do a search of this site, as a DIY leak-back test has been described in detail before (and several members have found duff injectors as a result). Or any diesel specialist should be able to do this test for you (shouldn't cost much). But, if you do need a new injector, they can be real devils to remove!

PS - Welcome to the club.
 
Welcome along mate. Some good info for you there to begin with. Also do make sure that the fuel filter that you used was a genuine dealer part as these engines are very fussy for them.
 
Really impressed with the quick response on this site. Have printed out the thread for the garage on Tuesday. Any more comments welcome

Thanks for the information so far. Was getting quite depressed about the car, which I love because it is ideal for transporting my 2 chocolate Labradors in their fitted crate B) Bottom of this page http://www.safedog.co.uk/honda.htm
 
Hi Bob , I've got a similar problem which is preventing me for selling my Accord. I'm part way down the path of position sensors.
I've replaced the cam sensor and that didn't work. But I've got a crank sensor due in the post hoping for it to be fitted this week.

My car started okay when cold, but not when hot. When it does start....it runs totally fine.

Frankly I cannot possibly see how faulty fuel injectors can cause this....but I need to reach the stage when I've got a replacement crank position sensor fitted first.., then I might pursue that line.

Have you had your cam or crank sensors replaced ????
 
Ian - the crank sensor was replaced, but made no difference (see first post) along with EGR valve and fuel pump... but it's unusual for a garage/RAC to change a crank/cam sensor unnecessarily, as it should have been fairly easy for them to test these sensors using an oscilloscope (as mentioned by a couple of us in your recent bad starting thread).

This thread from about 6 months ago refers to a problem with excessive injector leak-off/leak-back... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11508-starting/ and it's definitely been the reported cause of poor starting in a few threads on TA. Rather than swapping sensors on the off-chance, it's easier (and cheaper) to perform this test, but the garage should obviously be checking sensors as well (***uming they have decent test equipment). A completely failed sensor would definitely cause a DTC to be recorded (but maybe not simply a weak/intermittent signal from the sensor?).

But Bob, whatever the problem is eventually found to be, please do report back and let us know what the fault actually was.
 
Jon_G said:
Ian - the crank sensor was replaced, but made no difference (see first post) along with EGR valve and fuel pump... but it's unusual for a garage/RAC to change a crank/cam sensor unnecessarily, as it should have been fairly easy for them to test these sensors using an oscilloscope (as mentioned by a couple of us in your recent bad starting thread).

This thread from about 6 months ago refers to a problem with excessive injector leak-off/leak-back... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11508-starting/ and it's definitely been the reported cause of poor starting in a few threads on TA. Rather than swapping sensors on the off-chance, it's easier (and cheaper) to perform this test, but the garage should obviously be checking sensors as well (***uming they have decent test equipment). A completely failed sensor would definitely cause a DTC to be recorded (but maybe not simply a weak/intermittent signal from the sensor?).

But Bob, whatever the problem is eventually found to be, please do report back and let us know what the fault actually was.
Click to expand...

Yep Jon I must have speed read right past that ( but not sure whether the OP could have been referring to the cam sensor though ). The cam sensor is straight forward to access, just needs the airbox out of the way, whereas the crank sensor is buried behind the A/C compressor and I serious doubt the RAC would delve that far. I had all my injectors replaced with used ones less than a your ago, but I did have them checked & cleaned before they went in.

The other post you mentioned does make me open my mind up to the prospect of a faulty injector though. What I'm considering doing is asking my garage to first run an injector leak-off check to see whether there are any issues...but if that comes back fine then I'll ask them to proceed with the crank sensor replacement.

It just seems odd to me that a faulty injector can cause a starting problem but then run fine once started ( i.e. no smoke or power loss or noise ). But hey ho... :blush:

If I could suss out the correct parts and the right method…I’d like to try this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-caj2Bk4gI
 
Ian, I never mentioned this on your thread as I didn't think it could only cause a problem when hot (but I could be wrong)... in any case, the checking of your replacement injectors should have found this budding problem. I do follow all your Sputnik threads with great interest!

More info on leak back testing for the OP here... http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/tips_docs/Bosch%20common%20rail%20diesel%20injectors%20checking%20back%20leakage.pdf
 
Just thought I'd pop in and see how things are going.

I'll try to explain why a hot/warm engine can make this problem appear and also why the fault can be present at starting but once the engine is running everything appears to be OK.

As is well known common rail diesel systems operate at very high pressures. To illustrate a typical petrol injection system operates at 3 to 5 bar, a CR diesel at 250 to 1500 bar. However what is often not appreciated is that, although the pressures are very high, the volume of fuel per injection is minute and so the volume of fuel the pump supplies is correspondingly small. Any leak in the system can therefore cause the pressure to disappear very quickly.

At cranking speeds the engine is turning over very slowly, even compared with the normal idle speed. As the high pressure pump is mechanically driven from the engine the volume it outputs is correspondingly low. With even a tiny leak the low cranking speed and correspondingly low pump output gives plenty of time for the pressure to disappear.

With a hot or warm engine the temperature of the fuel will also be higher and so the fuel viscosity will be lower. The lower fuel viscosity allows fuel to leak away quicker and so causes the pressure to disappear once more.

I'm pleased to be able to say that "my" Accord (it's now my daughter's) is still running faultlessly despite the way she abuses it.


Hope this helps rather than confuses!


Alan
 
Hi Alan, putting it your way..it does make perfect sense.

I've tried to track your topics but can't find specific details of what probs you had vs. what solution you found.

Was yours injector specific or something on the rubber return piping?

cheers
 
Ian, I never had any problems with my Accord's fuel system or engine in the year that I owned it. What I have written has come from experience with a couple of other CR diesels I have owned. To answer your question problems with the return piping will not cause a loss of pressure at the injectors because the pressure in the return pipes is low, If the fuel filter has been eliminated as a cause the most likely culprit is a faulty injector followed by a failing pump.

Alan
 
My 'used' crank sensor has turned up in the post, so I popped down to my garage tonight to discuss plans to suss out SPUTNIK's woes.

Basically we agreed that its going in dock Friday morning for a leak-off check, then if that comes up ok ...the following morning his diagnosis bloke will look at the position sensors and possibly the EGR. If nothing can be found, then next its the fuel pump ( which is original ). So we'll just have to wait and see....
 
Bit late catching up with this thread... But I had this exact problem and it was in fact the fuel injector. 4th fuel injector to be specific. Apparently it was leaking quite badly and it caused the fuel pressure to be very low. Once I had this replaced, it was happy days :D
 
Problem now solved. New common rail and sensor has made the fault go away :)
Thanks for your input
 
Thats a great read - and a few things that i will have to check out...cheers guys
 
Bob157 said:
Problem now solved. New common rail and sensor has made the fault go away :)
Thanks for your input
Click to expand...


Hi Bob157 i do have exactly the same problem on me accord,when warm doesn't want to start,can you please describe what exactly is. is it the hole common rail system need to be change? Thank you in advance




Geaorge
 
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