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Big end failure....

J

JakHaMa

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Location
North East Lincolnshire
Car
Honda Accord
Hello to all, after a whole lot of internet searching i am still none the wiser. i have a 2004 euro 2.2cdti accord (engine number N22A1 - 1005188). however some how....(probably when the wife was driving) the sump has been hit and cracked. this lead to all the oil draining out slowly and on continued driving it developed a knock that sounded like a grizzly bear with a sledge hammer trying to get out of the bonnet.
i stripped it found the cracked sump, and got a new one (second hand) and then started digging.
It would seem that the oil is fed from cyclinder one on the crank and then flows to number four. it is number four which has spun its big end bearings. the others are showing signs of wear ( a bit of copper showing through) but nothing dramatic.

Now here lies the problem, My bearings on number four are razor sharp and nothing is visible on them. i contacted my local honda dealer and said, "Two big end bearing please," they asked "what colour?"
i have looked at the other bearings and could find a small one centimeter colour code on the side of some of the shells mostly black and pink, i think.

Now call me dumb but after 15 years of HGV repair, and doing my first engine at 15 years old, (a catapillar 16 litre) the following questions arise,
1. shouldn't all the bearings be the same, i have a mix of black and pink tops and bottoms, some with no colour on at all? (Cylinder one, black end cap, unknown con rod.) (cylinder two pink end cap, and black con rod) (cylinder three black end cap, and pink con rod) Cylinder four, your guess is as good as mine.)
2. ***uming this is normal, after all i have no suspicion it has been stripped down before, how can i find out which colours number four needs?. the journal is not damaged just a little light radial scouring.
3. can anyone tell me what the sizes (thincknesses) are for the various colours? do they have different internal AND external diameters?
4 are the variations due only to crank size, or are con rods and end caps differing internal sizes? - that would be strange indeed.
5. when i put this together, what is the big end torque setting?

6. I haven't taken the engine out, i am under it on my back theres enough room to work, but this oil pump is huge, is it timed, and can i just unbolt the front gear and take it off?

thank you for any help recieved i am at the end of my tether and my dealer is about as helpful as trying to mend the car with a fish.

Regards

Chris

(engine number N22A1 - 1005188).
 
I reckon you might be the trail blazer on this , maybe if someone has the workshop manual here they can advise ;)
 
Yeah This seems to be the brick wall, no one seems to know or have posted anything simular. i do not want to get into the relms of dropping teh crank out, getting a regrind, and matching shells, it's be too expensive. the car is an 04 plate and only worth 2000 to 3000 part ex so it would be a post on here for anyone wanting a executive accord with 17 alloy wheels in black, full leather seats for spare parts....decent offers.... :D but not yet, not now, i want to see if a set of shells, £110 inc vat, will sort it all out.
 
Thanks Dan thats a start, ill print that page and get under it, see what i can find out. doesn;t seem to explain why i have different colours in teh rods and caps, but if this is soem where to start then im on it,
 
Welcome to TA Christopher have you also priced up a second hand engine as this might be worth considering.
 
brett said:
Welcome to TA Christopher have you also priced up a second hand engine as this might be worth considering.
Click to expand...
Yeah Ebay is gonna cost me as much as the car is worth really, i was hoping to get it running and use it for 8 to 10 months before part exing it for a newer model, i cant afford to change it really so its gonna be end of summer at the earliest.
 
I posted a link to this thread on Civinfo and will let you know if I get any replies (or keep checking yourself!)... http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/91332-ctdi-big-end-shells-colour-coding.html#post1465400
 
Thanks Jon,
I am a member of a few forums but i only post when i am really stuck, and i have spent over 12 hours diggin, and the only thing i am sure of is google is useless and no one seems to know the answer nor has anyone been in the same position. but alas that still doesn't help alot.

I am going back under the beast tomorrow, i will take some photos, after Gathor's post above (which had some really useful stuff on it) ive had another luck, i can not find the crank numbers for the jounals, but the mains are CCCBB stamped on the block.
i have found some part numbers but once more they are only adding to the confusion. they all start CK, I will upload some pictures but once more i only seem to have one pair the same.

until tomorrow, thank you all

PS Jon there is a reply on the other forum, to answer his points, My main honda dealer, has no clue what should be on it, and i do not think it has had a regrind. ill have to try supplying a Vin to them but they have had the reg number. i have a micrometer set, but need to know what size the jounals should be first otherwise its just a number.
 
That link provided by Gathor is really good, I've bookmarked it. Also those replies in Civinfo are useful too.
Looking forward to the pics Chris.
 
some pictures from Cylinders two three and four,

i can't seem to get pictures to show so here is a link to my server,
http://skelly.myds.me/photo

Its the only public folder accord.
 
JakHaMa said:
Maybe one of you guys would like to take the pictures and upload them for me, thank you.
Click to expand...
Christopher you need to have a photo bucket account then copy and past your photos to hear with the IMG link
 
Hear you go mate like this

convert_010.jpg

convert_009.jpg

convert_008.jpg

convert_007.jpg

convert_006.jpg

convert_005.jpg

convert_004.jpg

convert_003.jpg

convert_002.jpg

convert.jpg
 
thanks brett. I hope dome one recognises the part numbers or something.
to be honest I think im going to go to my dealer and beg for ***istance. they have to have a spanner man who has had one stripped before.
I will update any results as and when .
 
The type of part number that you're looking for can be seen in the link below (items 9 and 11)
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__1600&block_03=445

Note that the above is the 2.4 petrol

For your car, start here
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_catalogue_C01.php
 
freddo frog... it would seem we are on the way to solving this thing.

with the stuff from Gathor.... which definatly showed me how to size the main jounals. not something I needed but I found letters stamped in the block cccbb in my case.
now looking at your link and finding my parts the bearings are listed as...bearing f con rod lower pink etc

now I think that the f is the letter I need to find on the crank as per gathors link.

. still doesnt explain why I had a mix of caps but hey ho at least itll go together right.


ill look tomorrow and hopefully we are right.
 
If the bearings have not been touched since the car left the factory, then one can look at Honda engine bearings in one of two ways:
1. the supplier of the crankshaft has a wide spec for machining the crank journals, and the plant that ***embles the engines chooses a bearing to fit ...maybe this is sem-automated
2. there is some design reason for having slightly different size journals and the different bearing sizes are standard ...no reason that I can think of but it would fit with a more automated ***embly

btw if you want the proper Honda part numbers from the Lings web-site, delete "_pfk" from the url then hit enter and it comes back with the Honda part numbers instead of some weird "PFKL" numbers
 
The only way i have ever come across different journals in an engine was tighter tolerances on cylinder one, and looser at the flywheel end. It helped the oil flow from the front to the back of the shaft, but we have two colours on the same rod / journal.

Any how, I am going in to the garage now to have a look for letters on my crank.
 
I've read that before about the diesel crank bearings, upper being a different colour to lower say, but still haven't found why?? :unsure:

It might not be letters on your crank, but more so that journal marked I is 1, II is 2, and so forth :unsure:
 
No numbers on the crank, at least not where Gathors post would have me looking.
What I did find after much searching was this....
IMG_20130128_103654_zps59255ad4.jpg


Very light engraving on the end of the Spar on journal four. I dont know if you can see but it looks like four letters CCDC all about 15mm tall, under that about half the size, 34252, and then smaller again, 00169 or 00109 or 00100.

Ive been on to honda technical who helpfully told me that some one would call in three to four days to help, GEE Thanks Honda.

Ive called my local dealer and this guy seemed interested... at least after i told him that i had been on to honda uk..... he reckons they have a tech guy in tomorrow and he's gonna give me a call.

so another day, but none the wiser.
I did get the jounals micrometered, good news no ovality at all and only 5 hundreths of wear on four. i'm guessing standard is a 50mm jounal.
4. 49.95
3. 49.98
2. 49.99.

Lastley, i spoke to biker friend today, apparently they mix shells on bikes too.
 
The solution, there is still no formal result on the question on why there are different coloured caps on each journal and no one seems to know any different, excepting some speculation that at the factory, they are precise to the Nth degree to stop engine noise.

The end result is, your cap colour depends on two things, your crank journal diameter and your conrod end bore.
No great surprise there, however when ordering you need two bits of info, a number of your conrod,
This is stamped on the side of the rod and cap, with half of the number on the cap and half on the rod. IN my case it was a number 2 on all the rods.
img008_zps36953ff3.jpg

The second reference is the crank journal size, this is a letter. It can be found in one of two places, either stamped on the journal spars as in the below fig,
OR as in my case a really light engraving on the last spar (the casting between the Journal four and the fifth main bearing) before the gear box, the picture is above (in a previous post) but a diagram is here.
img008_zps36953ff3.jpg
[/img]
img006_zps6282b01f.jpg

Once you have the number of each rod, and the letter designation of the journal, use the below table to work out which bearing you need.

img004_zpsc71f99b9.jpg



In my case it is worth noting that due to the disaster that befell my engine, journal four was worn by about .05 mm so I opted to take my C designation and guess (and it is only a guess as Honda had no idea how thick each colour was) that it was worn to a D. Leaving the conrod as a 2 that made me guess at the black option.
My mains sizes are above, and as such I went for Green in cylinder two, Brown in cylinder three, and Black in cylinder four, this reflects the wear I think, but I have no fram eof reference, other than pure guess work.

Once installed I will update as to whether there is any play or tightness on four, I will keep in mind for a blue pair if there is.

img005_zpsc0043cc6.jpg
 
"In my case it is worth noting that due to the disaster that befell my engine, journal four was worn by about .05 mm so I opted to take my C designation and guess (and it is only a guess as Honda had no idea how thick each colour was) that it was worn to a D. Leaving the conrod as a 2 that made me guess at the black option."

Sorry, but in that case wouldn't the best thing to do is have it plastiguaged, therefore ensuring the correct thickness of the bearing?

Also the chart above is an old diagram honda didn't do diesel when they produced that, so I'm wondering could there bit a bit more to it?
 
Mr Honda said:
"In my case it is worth noting that due to the disaster that befell my engine, journal four was worn by about .05 mm so I opted to take my C designation and guess (and it is only a guess as Honda had no idea how thick each colour was) that it was worn to a D. Leaving the conrod as a 2 that made me guess at the black option."

Sorry, but in that case wouldn't the best thing to do is have it plastiguaged, therefore ensuring the correct thickness of the bearing?

Also the chart above is an old diagram honda didn't do diesel when they produced that, so I'm wondering could there bit a bit more to it?
Click to expand...

there is no "correct thickness of bearing"..... believe it or not Honda do not know how thick they are at all, nor can they tell me the diameter of a C D or other wise journal... despite me speaking to technical. i even asked the ware house if they would vernier the ones on the shelf so i could make a more educated guess. In fact had they said yes the "brown are 1.45mm" i would have done a full gauging... however whats the point if you are going trial and error anyway!!!! i have ordered three sizes so i can measure the three and make the best selection.

And the diagram was printed of hondas terminal in front of my eyes so it is current.
please note the colours in the chart are different from the "integra link" earlier on, obviously this is for the n22A1 engine.
 
Ah very good, thought you were just re-using the integra diagram, nice to have the real info from Honda there too now. Good job ;)
 
How you getting on with this JakHaMa? This is an interesting post, it would be good to know what the progress is mate :)
 
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