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Brake pedal travels to floor when car is idle

Dan2441

Dan2441

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Messages
9
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2
Location
South Yorkshire
Car
Accord 2.2 i-CTDI
Hello all,

I'm a new member to this forum and new to the Honda Accord (well 2 weeks of owning one so far) [2007 2.2 i-CTDI Sport] and I'm from South Yorkshire.

I have found recently that when the car is stood still and I push the brake it will start to go to the floor. If I then pump the brake it will become stiff, but holding will depress it to the floor again.
When the engine is not running the brake is solid as a rock.
When driving and putting the anchors on harshly the car seems to stop well.

I've done some research, but many answers contradict others. Alot say it's the seals on the master cylinder and so there's a internal leak. However I stumbled across a forum post about a Toyota Corolla having a very similar problem and someone quoted straight from a service/handbook that cars equipped with ABS and EBD (Electronic brakeforce distribution) have brake pedals which will depress to the floor when the car is not moving and performance is not affected when moving. Infact the system will increase braking performance when the car is moving. With this EBD in mind I then did some searching with respect to the Honda Accord and found a couple of posts mentioning the VSA system somewhat includes EBD within it? So I tried turning the VSA off to see if the problem persists but it does.

Alarmed by the posts about master cylinder needing replacement I took my car to the Dealer I got it from and they checked the car and said it's fine and that the pedal is normal, they then took me to a Honda Civic to demonstrate, however in the Civic it wasn't as pronounced and he said because the Civic is newer and something about engine sizes can affect the power when idle, but stressed it doesn't affect braking when moving.

I'm still concerned however because of the said posts saying the cylinder needs replacing, so your inputs would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks for reading my post and I look forward to your replies.

All the best,
Daniel
 
Welcome to TA - say hello in the newbie section...

Never heard of this on the Accord unless there is a problem... How old is your brake fluid? Has the system been bled? Suppose that would lead to spongy brakes rather than this though...
 
Dan Robinson said:
Welcome to TA - say hello in the newbie section...

Never heard of this on the Accord unless there is a problem... How old is your brake fluid? Has the system been bled? Suppose that would lead to spongy brakes rather than this though...
Click to expand...
Hello Dan Robinson,
Thankyou for your swift reply. No brake fluid changes have been recorded within the service history booklet but I've noticed it does state for every 3 years or 27000 miles (the soonest) the car has done 24500 miles so far but yes it is over 3 years if we presume it hasn't had a change since new.
Yes on some of my search results people were saying that they had recent fluid changes, and even new discs etc but were getting this problem/occurance.

Again, Many thanks.
Daniel

[Edit: No warning lights ever show on the Dashboard either]
 
Daniel this definitely isn't normal.

Is your brake fluid low?

I would advise a full fluid change first and then see if it still does it. Perhaps get in touch with CJ (member pepster) he has a state of the art brake fluid bleeding kit with the correct Honda attachments and i'm sure will do this for you at a reasonable fee. He's only in Leeds.
 
F6HAD said:
Daniel this definitely isn't normal.

Is your brake fluid low?

I would advise a full fluid change first and then see if it still does it. Perhaps get in touch with CJ (member pepster) he has a state of the art brake fluid bleeding kit with the correct Honda attachments and i'm sure will do this for you at a reasonable fee. He's only in Leeds.
Click to expand...
Hello F6HAD
Brake fluid level is sat happily just below max.
I've noticed you have the same car as me, if possible when you get the time could you please try yours with the engine running and the car not moving. varying light and stronger pressure onto the pedal.

Thankyou for the advice.
Daniel
 
Dan, I know my car 'quite well' and it definitely does not do this.
 
I would say renew your brake fluid and bleed the system this is the cheapest option and see from hear
 
Probably avoid driving it in the meantime as well. Brakes are the cheapest way of stopping your car afterall.
 
Hi Daniel

Welcome to the forum.

I have exactly the same car as yours (2007 CDTi Sport GT) and your brake problem definitely is NOT right, I have owned many cars over the years and have never experienced these symptoms, I suggest you have it sorted immediately and don't drive the car.
 
it isnt uncommon for a small ammount of pedal creep but i would suggest you have a brake fluid change. its to do with servo ***istance, when the engine is turned off there is no ***istance and you have a rock had pedal. it is just your effort on the pedal. when running, the brake servo adds extra preasure to the pedal force to save your feet acheing off !. if there is too much water or air in the lines then this servo action compress this first and you get a spongy pedal or extra creep. but a small ammount isnt too allarming.
 
Dan07i-cdti said:
I have found recently that when the car is stood still and I push the brake it will start to go to the floor. If I then pump the brake it will become stiff, but holding will depress it to the floor again.
When the engine is not running the brake is solid as a rock.
When driving and putting the anchors on harshly the car seems to stop well.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but i'm trying to understand what the problem is here.

What you have described is pretty much standard operation for a servo ***isted braking system. Pump the pedal a little, hold pressure on the pedal and when you start the car the pedal should sink further. In fact it's a standard test.

When you then pump it again it will become stiff.

As you say your car stops fine when driving, so what is the actual problem? :huh:
 
Dan, mine does it too, as did the audi a8 and volvo t 5 i had before that. Its solid when not running, no leaks anywhere and fluid level is constant, brakes in driving are superb (weirdly I have some generic pads from local motor factor and I can outbrake my mate on his dc5 and the mot bloke said they were the best he'd seen in a long while...)

Just keep an eye on the levels and take it for a proper test down a quiet road.

Ian
 
Mine does this too, had the fluid changed and no change, again braking when moving is fine and it stops on a dime and the ABS kicks in fine too...

No leaks or any bulged brake lines either?

Steve
 
personally Daniel,

I would take Adam's advice on this and get the fluid changed, I think travelling to the floor is a good indication that it probably hasn't been done for a while!
 
i think you have air in the brake system, bleed the system
 
Sorry guys but if your pedal is travelling all the way to the floor, then there is an underlying problem! Just because it is happening in your cars, please do not take this as normal - it's your brakes afterall!!

As pointed out by myself, Adam and a few others now - have the fluid changed, and check the old fluid for moisture contamination (lots of off the shelf testing kits available for this).

If there is air/water in the system, this will be compressed (unlike brake fluid) causing the excessive pedal travel.

Some creep is normal, but we're talking creep, not full travel to the floor. Daniel is describing pedal travel to the floor. The only time mine did this is when we bled the brakes once the old fashioned way - and in that case your pedal is travelling to the floor as you push the fluid out of the system...
 
I can get mine to do this too, sat in traffic today holding the car on the brake peddle if I slowly apply more pressure then the peddle will slowly go to the floor. I'd of never noticed this unless I'd read this post and tried it.
 
When you get the brake fluid changed, make sure you flush it through properly. When i do our cars, I always put at least a litre through it and make sure the fluid coming through is absolutely clean.
 
Many thanks guys for your replies.
A little update on my situation, I ordered a Brake Fluid Tester kit from eBay and according to that there's at least less than 1.5% water in the fluid.
I have taken the car onto a quiet road, and the car is stopping well. I also then went onto a steep hill, stopped applied the brake, and let it travel to the floor to see of the car stood still, It did, in fact the car did not start rolling till I was near the top of the pedal travel.

I'm going to take the car to a Honda dealership tomorrow hopefully for them to have a quick look and/or places which offer free brake tests (I'm aware they might say something is wrong purely for work but I'll see if they say the same things)

In response to Martin F, yes this is pretty much what the guy at where I got my car from said, however it is not only sinking alittle, but to the floor. If I immediately release and apply small pressure it will travel to the floor much easier than the previous time. Pumping makes it stiff again.


Best Regards,
Daniel
 
Dan07i-cdti said:
I have found recently that when the car is stood still and I push the brake it will start to go to the floor.
Click to expand...


Dan07i-cdti said:
In response to Martin F, yes this is pretty much what the guy at where I got my car from said, however it is not only sinking alittle, but to the floor. If I immediately release and apply small pressure it will travel to the floor much easier than the previous time. Pumping makes it stiff again.
Click to expand...

I think this is perhaps where some confusion is coming in for me (and maybe others) in that in your first post you say that the pedal starts to go to the floor, but you don't say whether it actually gets to the floor. But in your second post you are quite clear that the pedal is actually reaching the floor. In your defence your thread ***le does actually say 'travels to floor' so maybe I should have read the thread ***le more than once, like I did the post. :unsure:

So if the pedal is definitely going all the way down to the floor (and not stuck on the floor mat, or similar) then that indeed is not as you would expect and is worthy of further investigation. It won't be water in the fluid, as that is a liquid, and like the brake fluid won't compress under pressure either. It could be air in the system and in modern complex systems it can sometimes be hard to remove all the air using traditional methods, especially if the sytems has been totally drained down for some reason. I don't think it will be the seals in the master cylinder, unless you have also noticed that you are loosing fluid as well. But it could be the seals in the vacuum servo.

However if it was my car i'd start with flushing the fluid, ensuring there is no air in the system and also inspecting the condition of the pads and whether the disks are in spec.
 
Update: I've just got back from my Honda dealer and two people checked the pedal and both came to the conclusion it is fine. They said it is common in diesels and its to do with the vacuum pump.
Quick searches on the internet I came across the following:
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/td5-brake-pedal-creep-58276.html
a link given in that leads to
http://www.brakesint.co.uk/technical.html#techNote202

For anyone else with the same thing as I've described I recommend you get second opinions on wether yours is normal just to make sure.

EDIT: made first link start on page 1 of 2 on the forum

Best Regards,
Daniel
 
Daniel, obviously there is some misinterpretation of your description of the symptoms but I would argue (that based on my interpretation of your writing) it's definitely NOT normal.. But as long as you're confident with it.
 
You should have small creep on the pedal then rock hard under braking.

Rather than getting diagnostics etc done, just change/bleed the brake fluid it'll need doing anyway. I can guarantee after 3years moisture/air will be in the system and add to a spongy brake pedal.
 
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