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Clutch pedal tension

K

Kuang

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Location
Leicestershire
Car
2005 Accord 2.4 Ex
I went to test drive a lovely 2.4 EX yesterday and decided to take it, but I noticed something about the clutch that I was hoping to run past a few people. I pushed the pedal before starting and noticed that the feel is surprisingly firm - not notchy, clicky and grating, but just with a strong spring action. I mentally noted that at the time but thought no more of it and can't remember feeling it again on the test drive - although I did have my mind on other things :) The shift action was fantastic and positive with no notchiness and even when I accidentally shifted to 6th instead of 4th (close, aren't they?) it didn't complain or slip. Will get the chance to try it gain when it's ready on Monday.

I was wondering if that kind of firm but smooth pedal feel with a short throw is about par for these cars? It's on 77k and appears to have been perfectly maintained and looked after - everything else is tight as a drum and feels almost like new.

Ta! :)
 
Sounds a lovely car Craig and probably nothing to worry about.The only problem with the clutches on petrols are the release bearing can wear.The symptom for that is the clutch pedal becomes very stiff and and hard to press to the floor.
 
that clutch sounds perfectly normal. they have a very short biting point and will be a little firmer than other manufacturers clutches.
its just the way they are.
a worn release bearing is easy to identify as well. the clutch will squeal when pulling away in first if it is shot. the clutch will still operate as normal but will be noisy when pulling away.
its not the sign of an abused clutch its just age related more than wear.
 
brett said:
The symptom for that is the clutch pedal becomes very stiff and and hard to press to the floor.
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Gotcha, thank you for the reply :) This wasn't overly hard to press and would move through the whole travel smoothly, but did feel very firm compared to the Octy. I'll have to give it time and see how it goes I think :)

Overall though the car's in fantastic shape, with a FHSH. Seems to have a bluetooth module on the A pillar too, which I wasn't expecting. I was especially taken by the standard ICE too once I'd tweaked the treble up a bit :)
 
Great stuff Craig get some photos up mate
 
Hmm, bit of an update - looking for some advice hopefully.

Now I've had the car for a couple of days it's clear that I have to bury the clutch to the floor until it clicks to shift cleanly. If it's slightly back from that and I'm standing still I can feel a tiny bump as first engages. The shift with it hard down is smooth, and there's no judder or slipping at all under any conditions. The pedal is light through the travel until it stiffens against the spring towards the very end.

I'm just wondering what can have happened to result in such a low bite point, but with everything else apparently fine? I'd like to get back to the dealer ASAP with a query, as I mentioned that the pedal felt quite firm after the test drive but he said it felt the same as the other ones he had for sale.

EDIT: Neil - by short biting point did you mean at the top of the travel, or the end?
 
at the bottom mate. I have the 2.0 but it is basically the same as the 2.4.
the biting point is very low on the accord and not unusual.

I thought it was unusual when I first got mine but have done 20k since with no problems. I queried the biting point as well when I first picked up my car and was unanimously told that a low biting point is normal for Hondas.
if it really bugs you I am sure it can be adjusted. just don't expect a huge difference.
 
Brilliant, thank you for the advice :) I'm still wearing the battle scars from previously owning the world's most unreliable car ;)

I was worried because it feels like if it moved a fraction of an inch lower I wouldn't be able to shift at all, it really is that low. To get a good fast shift when you're pressing on you have to kind of thump the pedal against the bottom of the travel and grab the gear as it bounces :)
 
I reckon I'm going to have to get this back to the dealer - the clutch has been getting worse for the last few days, and it's now at the point where the ball of my foot aches for an hour after a commute just for the pressure needed to work it cleanly. I've having to wear heavy boots to drive just to avoid the cramp. Had a quick word with a local specialist and he reckons it feels mechanical, like the pressure plate springs are drying out or the fingers are hardening. Might also explain why the release bearing is vibrating.
 
Bit of an update: ran it past an engineer at a famous local garage, and he's said it's definitely too heavy and feels as if the previous owner was unsympathetically flattening it against the floor for every shift. Consequently the diaphragm and release bearing will have worked a lot harder than they would have normally, and they've worn ahead of the clutch disc (which still feels fine). As the mechanical advantage has decreased from that wear pattern it's required more force and travel to actuate, and the already low biting point has slipped even lower to the point where you have to pretty much bend the pedal to move into first smoothly from standstill. The pressure plate is still pushing hard and there's plenty of grab, but the rest is probably suspect.

The dealer suggested it might just need bleeding, but getting out the tiny bit of sponginess would just make it harder through the whole range. Looks like we'll have to discuss what to do next. I did query the pedal feel before buying it and was advised that they were all broadly similar, but this one is kind of past that.
 
Had a few issues with mine too so will be interested to see the outcome of this. I get a hollow blowing on a bottle top sound pulling away on a hill sometimes which points to clutch bearing. Pedal isn't overly stiff but sufferes from the dreaded squealing and needs greasing often, also lately has developed a creak and slightly notchy/grating action since its been cold but I think this could still be realease bearing related. Good luck getting it sorted :)
 
Got a slight update for you :)

Finally got around to bleeding the clutch because I could feel a bit of sponginess in there, and it felt as if the friction plate was barely clearing the flywheel unless you bent the pedal. What came out was more like ditch water than fluid. I now have no sponginess, and the clutch is opening fractionally more as a result - it's easier to get into gear and not kicking back out of first and second unless it's floored.

Thing is, the hardness is still there and I'm pretty sure now it's the spring plate. It's not as if there's mechanical friction causing the heaviness; more a sense of pushing against a very firm spring that presses back hard the moment you ease the tension. It's enough to make your toes hurt after a rush hour commute :) The release bearing does make the same honk/hoot that you have, but usually only once at the start of the journey and maybe once randomly throughout. The clickiness from the master cylinder comes and goes so I'm not really fussed about that.

It'd be nice to have another car to compare mine to just to be sure, but two top mechanics I know have sat in it and effectively said 'bl**dy hell, that's a bit of hard work' :) Even my Civic Type R owning friend said it felt OTT. Going to give the dealer a shout tomorrow - the only issue is that it might be considered borderline between acceptable, and too much... depending on whose money it is :)
 
Kuang said:
Got a slight update for you :)

Finally got around to bleeding the clutch because I could feel a bit of sponginess in there, and it felt as if the friction plate was barely clearing the flywheel unless you bent the pedal. What came out was more like ditch water than fluid. I now have no sponginess, and the clutch is opening fractionally more as a result - it's easier to get into gear and not kicking back out of first and second unless it's floored.

Thing is, the hardness is still there and I'm pretty sure now it's the spring plate. It's not as if there's mechanical friction causing the heaviness; more a sense of pushing against a very firm spring that presses back hard the moment you ease the tension. It's enough to make your toes hurt after a rush hour commute :) The release bearing does make the same honk/hoot that you have, but usually only once at the start of the journey and maybe once randomly throughout. The clickiness from the master cylinder comes and goes so I'm not really fussed about that.

It'd be nice to have another car to compare mine to just to be sure, but two top mechanics I know have sat in it and effectively said 'bl**dy hell, that's a bit of hard work' :) Even my Civic Type R owning friend said it felt OTT. Going to give the dealer a shout tomorrow - the only issue is that it might be considered borderline between acceptable, and too much... depending on whose money it is :)
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Was it an independent or Honda dealer?

I'd take it back and say your not happy.
 
It was from an Indy, but legally the position is pretty much the same. From what I've seen the Honda pre-sale checks don't always seem to make a great deal of difference :)

I'm going to give him a shout later today - we've already had a brief chat about it and he asked me to go back over so he could take a look, but unfortunately I had a spell of illness that held things back.
 
Kuang said:
It was from an Indy, but legally the position is pretty much the same. From what I've seen the Honda pre-sale checks don't always seem to make a great deal of difference :)

I'm going to give him a shout later today - we've already had a brief chat about it and he asked me to go back over so he could take a look, but unfortunately I had a spell of illness that held things back.
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All I was thinking is that an Independent, won't have as much experience of what the clutch should feel like, only because they are in and out of different cars all day long so get immune to how different clutches and brake pedals feel etc, however if you took it to a Honda dealer for a second opinion then they will probably have a better idea of what it should feel like.

Maybe suggest that to your independent dealer, nothing against the independent, it just may actually save time and money in the short term.

Hope it all gets sorted soon either way.

Good luck
 
It's a very good point, although there are two unusual quirks: This dealer actually sells a lot of Accords for preference and tends to buy them direct from main dealerships, and the two main Honda dealers we have in this county don't have the best reputations. I did actually think along your lines and spoke to one but they wouldn't even ask a technician to step on it to see - they insisted I had to book it in at the usual hourly rate.That's the same main dealer that always managed to cause a new (unrelated) problem on my friend's car every time he took it in for something completely different, and once left a screwdriver rattling around in his engine bay.

Fingers crossed I can sort it, as I'm really liking the rest of the car. Took in on a cross country hack to the Heritage Motor Centre at Gaydon today, and really started to get a feel for how capable the chassis is.
 
I had my car in 3 times to my dealer about clutch tension each time they said was fine even though deep down I knew it was not but thought I was getting paranoid as this was my 3rd clutch in 4months . When I had manifold changed went to a different dealer asked them to check my clutch it now feels mint and I was proven I was right so maybe a 2nd opinion is in order
 
Kuang said:
It's a very good point, although there are two unusual quirks: This dealer actually sells a lot of Accords for preference and tends to buy them direct from main dealerships, and the two main Honda dealers we have in this county don't have the best reputations. I did actually think along your lines and spoke to one but they wouldn't even ask a technician to step on it to see - they insisted I had to book it in at the usual hourly rate.That's the same main dealer that always managed to cause a new (unrelated) problem on my friend's car every time he took it in for something completely different, and once left a screwdriver rattling around in his engine bay.

Fingers crossed I can sort it, as I'm really liking the rest of the car. Took in on a cross country hack to the Heritage Motor Centre at Gaydon today, and really started to get a feel for how capable the chassis is.
Click to expand...


Bad luck on the main dealers then.

I sort of understand the mentality of well if a technician is having a quick look at your car, then he isn't earning money for the dealership. however it is just a case of him sitting in the car and trying the pedal and saying yes, feels like something might be wrong "you need to bring it in" or " feels fine to me" The negative goodwill these dealerships can create with this negative approach is massive.
It is hard enough for many people to go the main dealer anyhow, as they think they are going to get ripped off, this sort of approach tends to put the final nail in the coffin so to speak.

Well hopefully in your case then the independent has got a bit more experience than most, so hopefully he'll be able to sort it for you and clearly he appreciates the Accord is a good car.
 
low biting point and other things aside you clearly feel it isn't right, your suspicions are probably correct. I would look for a deal on changing it, but first go to a forecourt and sit in one to put your mind at ease rather than relying on mechanics who will differ. It should go in gear with no effort, it could also be a slave cylinder just to throw that into the works.
 
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