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Problem with start when rained overnight

B

bobski

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Location
Petersfield
Car
Accord 2.0 V-TEC
Hello everyone

I have a Honda Accord. Manufacture year 2000 2.0 V-TEC saloon. 125 k miles, manual, petrol. Made in UK.
Owner from 40 k 5 years now.

Looks very similar to this carhttp://cdn.motors.co.uk/d/used-photos/23117/400x/0/0/W654VCE.jpg

The problem I am having is when it rains overnight car is having a problem when trying to start. I have to try it few times (sometimes few to many and battery dies). Anyway. After the start when trying to press gas pedal car is choking and sometimes stops. I had this problem for over a year now. When driving on high revs and low gears and pressing gas pedal very slowly it moves but if gas is pressed harder (in a normal manner) it kills the engine immediately. Not very good on junctions or roundabouts. After around 10 minutes of a drive (give or take) problem disappears and come back next day if it was raining overnight. I can pinpoint to weather conditions as we had a nice British summer for last 3 months with almost no rain in South East and every morning car started from the first try. However last week was raining again and problem came back. When we had snow and ice - there was no problems either.

So far I have replaced battery and check all cables, oil and other fluids.

Have anyone experienced anything similar? How can I or what could I do with it to fix this problem.

Thank you for reading. Any suggestions are welcome.
 
Hi Pepster.

Thanks for your RE. I have found the video that you mentioned. Can you tell me what "duff PCV" is?

Thanks
 
bobski said:
Hi Pepster.

Thanks for your RE. I have found the video that you mentioned. Can you tell me what "duff PCV" is?

Thanks
Click to expand...


hey Bob, could you send me the link reference the EGR Plate clean because the one I have saw looks nothing like my engine and looking at your pic mine is exactly like yours (car that is!),

Cheers.
 
Hi Mate,

As CJ said, defo sounds like the EGR channels and probably the valve needs a good clean out to get all of the carbon build up out of the channels. The plate is a bit of a pig to get out as you have to remove the fuel rail along with injectors to get to it. Also all of the small hoses and wires surrounding the area need to be moved out of the way. If you are not sure what you are doing or should I say if you are not confident in what you are doing, I would let a proffesional sort it out for you.

With that miliage on the clock and if it has never been cleaned before then I guarantee that it needs doing!

Hope this helps
 
Thanks for your RE BigDave.


Hi trident227

Link to video

Engine and wires setup do not match my car either but just general concept should be enough ... so I thought. I have failed to clean EGR plate because of this wires (Marked red). There are no plugs on either end of them and I have also tried to open the plastic bit but there is no way to separate cables. Disconnected every single plug that was attached to EGR (chamber and plate) but I can not move those cables(marked in red) in a way to be able to pull EGR chamber.
Spent 2 hours trying to figure it out but failed. Any ideas?

PCV is the bit in the middle so this should be straight forward (hopefully).

DSCN0365_1.JPG


Couple of links that will help find parts to buy as per Pepster post
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17S1A01&block_02=E__0301&block_03=6461
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17S1A01&block_02=E__0801&block_03=6461
 
bobski said:
Hi trident227

Link to video

Engine and wires setup do not match my car either but just general concept should be enough ... so I thought. I have failed to clean EGR plate because of this wires (Marked red). There are no plugs on either end of them and I have also tried to open the plastic bit but there is no way to separate cables. Disconnected every single plug that was attached to EGR (chamber and plate) but I can not move those cables(marked in red) in a way to be able to pull EGR chamber.
Spent 2 hours trying to figure it out but failed. Any ideas?

PCV is the bit in the middle so this should be straight forward (hopefully).

DSCN0365_1.JPG


Couple of links that will help find parts to buy as per Pepster post
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17S1A01&block_02=E__0301&block_03=6461
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17S1A01&block_02=E__0801&block_03=6461
Click to expand...

Hello mate, thats exactly like mine yet as you said I cant see how I am supposed to get at the damn plate!......getting a bit dark in lovely wet Scotland so will give a blast next weekend, cheers for the pics!
 
The big wire loom cannot be removed for this job but can be moved aside to allow access. It is held on by two clips, one at each end of the loom. Once loose, you should be able to move it back and hold it back with some bungee clips or perhaps cable ties. Once it is out of the way, you can then access the fuel rail. Be causious and very careful when removing the fuel rail as you dont want to damage the injector seals or even worse, the injectors themselves! The fuel rail is another part that wont completely come out but can be moved aside to give access to the EGR plate that sits on top of the intake manifold.

Once you have access to the plate, it is held on by 4 10mm bolts, undo the bolts and carefuly lift off the plate taking caution not to damage the gasket that may or may not come off with the plate. Once you have the plate in hand, you need to free up all of the chanels from the carbon build up with a small flathead screwdriver. When you have scrapped off all the gunk, give it a good clean with carb cleaner. Also clean the gasket with carb cleaner but be carefull not to bend it!

The final but most essential part of the job is to free the 4 port holes on the intake manifold of the gunk. You should try not to poke it straight through as you dont really want that stuff going through the combustion chamber. Perhaps a hoover hose to suck it as you scrape at it?

Then its a case of putting it all back together in the correct order. You should apply a tiny smidge of silicon grease to the injector seals before trying to reseat them!

Make sure it is a dry day or do it in the garage!

Its a pig of a job but once it is done it will make all of the difference as the engine will be able to breath properly again!

Good Luck
 
Thanks all
Need to purchase some bits and pieces - will try to do it next weekend and report back when done.

Thank you for all your posts.
 
BigDave said:
The big wire loom cannot be removed for this job but can be moved aside to allow access. It is held on by two clips, one at each end of the loom. Once loose, you should be able to move it back and hold it back with some bungee clips or perhaps cable ties. Once it is out of the way, you can then access the fuel rail. Be causious and very careful when removing the fuel rail as you dont want to damage the injector seals or even worse, the injectors themselves! The fuel rail is another part that wont completely come out but can be moved aside to give access to the EGR plate that sits on top of the intake manifold.

Once you have access to the plate, it is held on by 4 10mm bolts, undo the bolts and carefuly lift off the plate taking caution not to damage the gasket that may or may not come off with the plate. Once you have the plate in hand, you need to free up all of the chanels from the carbon build up with a small flathead screwdriver. When you have scrapped off all the gunk, give it a good clean with carb cleaner. Also clean the gasket with carb cleaner but be carefull not to bend it!

The final but most essential part of the job is to free the 4 port holes on the intake manifold of the gunk. You should try not to poke it straight through as you dont really want that stuff going through the combustion chamber. Perhaps a hoover hose to suck it as you scrape at it?

Then its a case of putting it all back together in the correct order. You should apply a tiny smidge of silicon grease to the injector seals before trying to reseat them!

Make sure it is a dry day or do it in the garage!

Its a pig of a job but once it is done it will make all of the difference as the engine will be able to breath properly again!

Good Luck
Click to expand...

Hey Dave, forgot to ask, does the top of the engine i.e the honda plate need to come off to free up some space for the wire loom......I had a go at it today but could not seem to find anything like the space I needed to get at the plate !......cheers for any replies pal
 
trident227 said:
Hey Dave, forgot to ask, does the top of the engine i.e the honda plate need to come off to free up some space for the wire loom......I had a go at it today but could not seem to find anything like the space I needed to get at the plate !......cheers for any replies pal
Click to expand...

No dude, the rocker cover should defo not come off for this job. I know it seems awkward and tight mainly because, well, it is. But none the less, it can be done. Ive done it twice. By the way, that wire loom provides the power to each injector, you have to unplug each one! Might be an idea to disconnect the battery before hand, just to be on the safe side!
 
Might I just add that I accept no responsibility for the success or failure of this job. If you are not comfortable doing it then dont run the risk and take it to a pro. Sorry, dont want to feel responsible for any damages!
 
Just a note of caution while cleaning the EGR, hope not to discourage you:

Be careful when removing either the fuel injectors or the fuel rail, several people have broken some fuel injectors while doing this job.
I also managed to do it with the rocker cover in place, its tight, but doable.
 
bobski said:
Hello everyone

I have a Honda Accord. Manufacture year 2000 2.0 V-TEC saloon. 125 k miles, manual, petrol. Made in UK.
Owner from 40 k 5 years now.

Looks very similar to this carhttp://cdn.motors.co.uk/d/used-photos/23117/400x/0/0/W654VCE.jpg

The problem I am having is when it rains overnight car is having a problem when trying to start. I have to try it few times (sometimes few to many and battery dies). Anyway. After the start when trying to press gas pedal car is choking and sometimes stops. I had this problem for over a year now. When driving on high revs and low gears and pressing gas pedal very slowly it moves but if gas is pressed harder (in a normal manner) it kills the engine immediately. Not very good on junctions or roundabouts. After around 10 minutes of a drive (give or take) problem disappears and come back next day if it was raining overnight. I can pinpoint to weather conditions as we had a nice British summer for last 3 months with almost no rain in South East and every morning car started from the first try. However last week was raining again and problem came back. When we had snow and ice - there was no problems either.

So far I have replaced battery and check all cables, oil and other fluids.

Have anyone experienced anything similar? How can I or what could I do with it to fix this problem.

Thank you for reading. Any suggestions are welcome.
Click to expand...

Hi all
I have read all the comments and there all really good and a dont want to tread on any1s toes but i dont think the fualt is to do with EGR. :unsure:

because car would still start even if the EGR was blocked plus only having problems when its rained - so what does damp air affect when starting ...............?

something on the ignition system. going by the symptoms described i would be checking the distributor as its where the coil pack is, damp air couses the amp inside to short thus not starting, when started the heat from the engine drys the cap hense problem disapears. :eek:

when its started, If you apply full throttle does the car engine die?, and when you drive it normaly it feels chuggy like its lossing power? if you slowly apply the throttle is the car ok?
 
btw new coil kit+cap is £100
you can get a cap for £15 - £20

so i would get it checked first before replacing.

you can check it your self if buy a spark tester kit and use it when it fails to start, this way you can see if its getting a spark
 
Mine had a cracked distributor cap and it had the same problems. Not starting on a damp morning. I had my car serviced at the same time as well and i've not had the same problem. The cap cost me 25 pounds(not original)
 
Have to agree with Gordon here dudes.

The info that has been posted on how to do the other mentioned job is BRILLAINT! but i think that the problems with it starting would be down to something electrical. Maybe even a tired starter.

Problems while running are 99% of the time due to the EGR Valve or Plate, but when it comes to starting it's probably electrical.

You shopuld carry out all the work that's been mentioned though, simply becuase it'll improve your car all round, but as for the starting issues, as i've said, i agree with Gordon.
 
Welcome back

@TIN-MAN
when its started, If you apply full throttle does the car engine die?, and when you drive it normaly it feels chuggy like its lossing power? if you slowly apply the throttle is the car ok?
Click to expand...

Yes this is exactly what is/was doing.

Unfortunately i didn't have time to clean EGR so far but managed to replaced the cap and I think I might have found the problem.

It took me about 15 minutes do to so and it was very easy to do. Not to mention that car is working as well.
Inside the cap metal bolts were oxidized. After replacement for a new I have used screwdriver to remove more less 2-3 mm of something that fell off them.


Pictures attached
photo4.JPG


photo3.JPG



There is one more thing that was looking suspicious. At the end of the bolt the very thin end had something like a dust or maybe something else. I have cleaned it with paper and now looks OK
Pictures attached (this is before i have cleaned this end)

photo2.JPG





I have got now all the stuff and tools needed so hopefully when a nice and sunny day will come on my day off i will go ahead with EGR plate cleaning and report back.


Thank you for all your suggestion.
 
My car occasionally hesitates to start - the starter motor turns as if trying to fire, then pauses, then it will fire. It is hard to explain as it really is a split-second hesitation and only happens once in a blue moon, not specifically after rain / sun / ice / snow etc.

After reading the earlier comments I thought I would see what my distributor cap looked like (haven't had to take one apart since my Metro 10 years ago!), the metal contacts were oxidised as in the picture and I got a lot of flakes off too.

BigDave said:
Should that small copper looking pin on the distributer be cylinder shaped?
Click to expand...

What does that little pin do exactly? It seems to fit into the distributor cap where there is a spring recessed, I only ask because mine is exactly the same colour as the one highlighted in the picture. The car has only just had a service so I wouldn't expect to have to change anything so soon.

Has anyone else ever had hesitation like this when starting? Am I along the right lines by looking at ignition system or should I be looking elsewhere?

Cheers,
Colin
 
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