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littlebo reflash Q&A

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Jon_G said:
The problem with the subjective evidence you want your customers to rely upon is that it leads to things like homeopathy being considered to be effective.
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^This. Oh so much this.

I've been following this thread with increasing concern, and JonG has nailed that concern. There may very well be subjective, unmeasurable aspects to the remap which make the car more pleasant to drive or improve it in other ways. But there is also a clear claim that it gives more power, and this claim is capable of being tested. Any test which is not a direct comparison, because of other mods or differing test conditions, is of no value, and until you can supply the results of such a test, it's a bit much to call people asking questions "haters". Saying, in effect, trust me but if it turns out your trust was misplaced I promise to give you your money back, trust me! is simply not good enough substitute for being open in the first instance about the real, measurable effects of the remap.

Put it this way: if the person I got to remap my car had acted in the way demonstrated on this thread, I'd have run a blooming mile.
 
Just an update on my reflash.
Filled up the tank after the remap. Driving included town, a and b to have the remap, serious driving back, some motorway and a lot of joy rides.
Mpg came back with 29mpg, 370 mies to the tank (at point of refil, still had more than 1/8th left)

Very very impressed as normally I get 30-32 with town driving, motorway and subtle driving.
I going to do my best to drive like I did before remap to get some form of comparison.
 
Maybe someone wanna ask vtistu any specific questions about this or that ? Not about subjective degree of his happiness for 300 pounds. He isnt selling so he can probably tell you the truth. Mb his doors closing sound is more pleasant now, or wipers cleans better, placebo has wide spector of influence lol ) And please, guys, lets compare apples to apples, not with R8 or something like that.

vtistu, more open loop driving you have - more difference in mpg youll see, as i mentioned b4 you have 2 factors of fuel saving under same driving conditions. 1. open loop map tuned more precisely and fuel efficient than stock, 2 . due to low end torque bump and more direct pedal you dont need to jump on it to get same amount of acceleration, less revs = less fuel burnt.
 
I'm not a hater either but I do like to see real facts.
Part of the problem as I see it is the lack of proof of your claimed quite decent power gains on a na engine. Add in the fact that I don't think you are based in this country and people are required to post their ECU to a third party to get the remap. Then add in are you a legitimate company that has done plenty of remaps or just an enthusiast and what other maps have you done?

Combine all these things together and you can see why people might have doubts before parting with their money. If it was a Corsa forum you would probably have plenty of takers but most of us are a little older and wiser and like some form of real backup first. What happens if an ECU gets lost in the post?

I am not trying to critisize but if you answer a few peoples concerns without getting defensive you might get more sales.
 
Well, now I feel silly as I used the wrong receipt.
Worked out at 31.3 mpg which is even more impressive.

Tbh it's not all about bhp numbers. It's the way it now delivers the power.

Maybe I am the 'corser' generation.
Fiat punto 1.1 with full body kit, 17'' chromes, neons, then civic vti, ep3 with full spoon, S2000 with blue wheels and stickerbomb'd bonnet.
Yes I will be hated, yes I should grow up, yes I enjoy my Accord. Next step is k20 Jazz or supercharge CRV.
 
Forum Member Fredoops is the chap in Australia who is running this map. He contacted me a while back in relation to the remap, having followed my old thread about the possibility of remapping older 2.4s. He was very positive about it. I shall PM him and see if he wants to pop on and offer a more long term review.

Regards dynos. We all know Dynos are very subjective. We also know it clearly states on the printout that the car concerned also has an aftermarket outlet (header). It clearly states so at the top. Therefore, people need to use their discretion when reading/looking into this. And I don't think UKCL9 is claiming these gains are without the after market header.

Also, I think there's a car culture difference here. As far as I'm aware, in Eastern Europe, where Littlebo comes from, there's more of an A/B road test culture as opposed to the A/B Dyno culture we find in other parts of the world. A dyno can be manipulated, but then so can a video. I think this is partly just a difference in outlook between different car enthusiast backgrounds.

My advice, would be aim to get both done. Before and after road tests and Dyno runs. But this stuff takes time. Let's give Littlebo the benefit of the doubt and time to sort this out.

As for the K24 and the notion of a remap in general is that it is as Brian describes, like a lazy V6 in nature. There are flat spots and you feel like there's always a lot more to be had from this engine in terms of smoothness across the rev range and more even power/torque bands. I couldn't care less if a map gave me 0BHP increase as long as it sorted out the DBW lag (and long term bug for me) and dips in power delivery in the areas described. This is more important and what's key to the K24's potential success as an all round great engine in my view, and this is something people need to be aware of if they've not owned or spent a great deal of time with a K24.
 
For about the first year of ownership (i.e. Jan to Dec 2006) I thought it was great, then as I got used to it I thought there must be room for improvement. This must be the same with all but the top cars (e.g. Porsche, Audi R8), one wouldn't start messing with that technology anyway. The only change I would ever make on this car is a reflash, nothing else. I am perfectly happy with everything else on it. But before getting a reflash, as a qualified engineer, it would be really nice to see a before and after comparison on the same car in the same conditions (doesn't matter if the car has any other mods, just want to see graphs of an ECU swap). Surely it's not a lot to ask for a back-to-back comparison on a dyno at the wheels.
 
Steve, Fredoops is a bad example coz he is also my partner )) We flashed around 15+ cars there and more on the way when he come back from holidays. Placebo works good on OZ . You guys can try to join their group and ask bout refash to see opinions ad feedbacks.
Dave, i flashed over 200 cars , mostly CL9. Also k23 turbo that you dont have in UK , J35 and 37 which are also rare and R18 R20 civics. K20 cl7 tune been finished and tested recently. Im working only with Honda engines and till i finish all of em im not gonna focuse on something else. Ive posted a dyno where all can clearly see the difference but ppl still wanna see something measured in UK. Ok , you can do it. Guys shipped me ECUs from Poland, Spain, Portugal, Romania, Germany. I recieved 50+ of em locally , no any1 been lost. U just need to ship it locally, i dont think royal mail works worse than other mails.
All companies been unknown enthusiasts some time ago so all i need is a patience and to work hard making more and more honda ppl happy. Im not asking to love me from the first sight lol )
Fred, cm and cl has more weak points and narrow places besides bad factory tune, never say never, just try it reflashed with good header, its a completely different car to drive. Heres 2 AT cars , bone stock cl9 vs reflashed + my prototype header+ intake mods, 1-3 gear run. black car has +2 passangers onboard and full tank of gas, its 150+kg of additional weigh, usually 100 kg is 4 bodies on such run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N-Gkiz1vOA .
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXUemlOepHU my first reflashed bone stock CU2 vs bone stock CU2 . Isnt it a good difference for just a reflash ? Dave, its not not avg opel citroen or kia engine , its Honda and it can beat turbo cars while its NA and tuned properly . Dont remember if posted this already or not , CL9 MT with reflash and header, intake mod beats GTI . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNv5EQsPUGA before reflash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTzAlNN16qE after . one more run , messed with tranny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ocZBwAnSUo
 
Someone mentioned my name.


All the dyno charts here once you pull back some of the chart "smoothing", is pretty much identical to what a Hondata reflash chart look like.

I don't see people complaining about the hondata "reflash", which essentially does the same thing.
 
Hey ppl , i just found one mo set of plots been made by customer few months ago. Bone stock car , kn drop in filter is the only mod.


7a462de12907.jpg


98a536f17922.jpg



U can see how jerky and bumpy is stock car graph and how smooth is reflash B)

Top numbers where avg Joe usually looks at cant impress but if you able to compare how much space been added under the curves ....

And ill repeat one more time , no any graph cant represent engine real life behaviour and the way it delivers torque, cant show you how much better it pulls under part throttle and low rpms, how much better pedal feel been improved , how solid and direct responce becomes and so on For example lots of guys, after they calm down with racing mode testings responded me with - thanks God i can now pass railways and small obstructions on 2nd-3rd gear and it pulls right from idle without twitching. You can see this on any graph ? No ! Dyno is WOT testing but u drive at WOT just maybe 2-3% of whole engine life and the only way to understand all the benefits of reflash is a testdrive. I know my brew and i recommend you the best way to study it but all the ppl keep asking me for flat respond for volume question. Dyno plot isnt the best way to understand engine, its just the instrument to tune it. Thats the biggest problem. Very few ppl understand such things. I dont mind spending my time for explanations if it can be useful for someone ... If you wanna see power benefit then better take a look at vids i posted, its real life comparsion, way more representative than paper with lines on it.

Tomorrow, during dyno day in OZ there will be a to b comparsion with spare ECU , both runs will be made in 10 min. You asked - youll get it.
 
Thanks for the effort on the graphs Segey. Will be interesting to see what Fredoops posts from down under.
 
Im doing my best, Steve ! Fred has AT so it will be slightly different but graph on graph.

sad version : haters gonna hate , Steve )) I can give an arm that even after i post 10 a to b from oz, poland or new guinea they will keep asking for local a to b after i make a free reflash LOL ))
 
Well we must take into consideration air humidity in different climates :lol: .

Nah, I'm kidding. The thing here is, you're an unknown entity to many of us in the UK and therefore people are understandably cautious and curious. The best way forward is always going to be to give the customer what they want.

A/B comparisons on Dyno as well as on road lends weight and creditability to your claims and should put uncertain minds at ease. So thank you for putting in the effort in gathering old info and generating new info tomorrow with Fredoops. This information should make my job of moderation, navigating heated discussion much easier ;) .

(less of the "haters gonna hate" though please, don't want to stir the pot any more ;) )
 
Shure, it will.

btw, guys, what can u say bout real world difference u see on vids ? good enough for just a reflash ? AT cl9 with reflash and header equals ctr acceleration , yay or nay ?
 
I'm more interested in when you can map for example my 03 2L AT (Trip) :D :D, great car but It needs that vtec to kick in sooner than 6k.

But saying that, would it be worth my car having it if you ever get one done, as my car is at 120k mileage, but still feels strong, gets serviced every year, been driven sensible, only time its really hit vtec is ever since i've had it for the last 2-3months.
 
Honda petrols will happily see 200K I reckon before anything engine needs serious maintenance. The thing with these cars though is it's the body and other moving parts like suspension that time takes its toll on. All cars really. Compared to 40 years ago, engines last much longer now and almost can go for ever if maintained. It's the rest of the car that falls apart around it. But 150K on a 2.0 Honda petrol built in Japan, should really be ok for many more years happy motoring in my opinion.
 
Good to know, I know this engine will last another 100k easily, and the car all round mechanically is sound.
 
littlebo said:
Shure, it will.

btw, guys, what can u say bout real world difference u see on vids ? good enough for just a reflash ? AT cl9 with reflash and header equals ctr acceleration , yay or nay ?
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tbh those sort of videos don't impress me, as there are too many unknowns, such as the drivers' relative capabilities, camera lenses can be deceptive (either way), etc. It looks like Top Gear, just a bunch of people larking about. That's just me though. Some people will like them.

But I am impressed with those two plots in #38.

I don't understand Steve's comment in #32 where he says "We all know Dynos are very subjective" ....err videos are subjective, dyno plots are objective. If it's a test-bed dyno (where the engine shaft is connected to the dyno) then it gives clear data on the engine. If it's a rolling-road dyno (where the power at the wheels is measured) then it gives clear data on the performance on the road. What I don't like to see, is a rolling-road plot where the engine power is inferred. As far as I am concerned, a rolling-road dyno graph must always include the power plot (or torque plot) at the wheels, if it doesn't then the plot is neither objective nor subjective, it's just totally useless, like a video taken at night in the dark with no lighting.

I also don't get some of Sergey's comments, for example in #38 "Dyno is WOT testing but u drive at WOT just maybe 2-3% of whole engine life and the only way to understand all the benefits of reflash is a testdrive". Surely those videos are also WOT ??

and "Dyno plot isnt the best way to understand engine" .... what else is there to display the results ??

I can only talk about my requirements (daily driving on my car is fine) : With a reflash I don't care about the DBW, and I don't care about mpg. What I want is more life at the top end, which Honda have obviously removed when the K24 first came out: shockingly un-aggressive cams, appallingly late VTEC engagement, and anything else to make sure that the engine would last for a minimum of 7 years (that's their max warranty period).

So, back to those plots : I've downloaded them and put them up side-by-side, and the difference is clear to me. They look good, that's what I want to see. If you do a side-by-side comparison, try to get both "at-wheels" plots on the same graph. i.e. if possible: One graph power-at wheels (side-by-side), one graph torque at wheels (side-by-side). Also state the road speed on the car's speedo at a stated rpm (e.g. 6000, or 7000, or whatever). Atmospheric conditions would be nice to know, but since it's a side-by-side in the same car within an hour, it doesn't matter (the percentage difference that atmospheric conditions give are not significant to be seen on a side-by-side "at-wheels" comparison, same is true of tyre pressures)

The fact that you have found those plots in #38, and the fact that you're willing to do a side-by-side on the same car on the same dyno, says a lot to me.
 
freddofrog said:
tbh those sort of videos don't impress me, as there are too many unknowns, such as the drivers' relative capabilities, camera lenses can be deceptive (either way), etc. It looks like Top Gear, just a bunch of people larking about. That's just me though. Some people will like them.

But I am impressed with those two plots in #38.

I don't understand Steve's comment in #32 where he says "We all know Dynos are very subjective" ....err videos are subjective, dyno plots are objective. If it's a test-bed dyno (where the engine shaft is connected to the dyno) then it gives clear data on the engine. If it's a rolling-road dyno (where the power at the wheels is measured) then it gives clear data on the performance on the road. What I don't like to see, is a rolling-road plot where the engine power is inferred. As far as I am concerned, a rolling-road dyno graph must always include the power plot (or torque plot) at the wheels, if it doesn't then the plot is neither objective nor subjective, it's just totally useless, like a video taken at night in the dark with no lighting.

I also don't get some of Sergey's comments, for example in #38 "Dyno is WOT testing but u drive at WOT just maybe 2-3% of whole engine life and the only way to understand all the benefits of reflash is a testdrive". Surely those videos are also WOT ??

and "Dyno plot isnt the best way to understand engine" .... what else is there to display the results ??

I can only talk about my requirements (daily driving on my car is fine) : With a reflash I don't care about the DBW, and I don't care about mpg. What I want is more life at the top end, which Honda have obviously removed when the K24 first came out: shockingly un-aggressive cams, appallingly late VTEC engagement, and anything else to make sure that the engine would last for a minimum of 7 years (that's their max warranty period).

So, back to those plots : I've downloaded them and put them up side-by-side, and the difference is clear to me. They look good, that's what I want to see. If you do a side-by-side comparison, try to get both "at-wheels" plots on the same graph. i.e. if possible: One graph power-at wheels (side-by-side), one graph torque at wheels (side-by-side). Also state the road speed on the car's speedo at a stated rpm (e.g. 6000, or 7000, or whatever). Atmospheric conditions would be nice to know, but since it's a side-by-side in the same car within an hour, it doesn't matter (the percentage difference that atmospheric conditions give are not significant to be seen on a side-by-side "at-wheels" comparison, same is true of tyre pressures)

The fact that you have found those plots in #38, and the fact that you're willing to do a side-by-side on the same car on the same dyno, says a lot to me.
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You are not going to get much more out of the top end without cam work and a whole raft of other mods

The OEM cam profile for the k24a3's (apart from those post facelift TSX cams on the K24a2) are VERY mild. Both duration and lift are as mild as they come.
25 degree VTC does not allow much movement, the RBB manifold is NOT designed for top end breathing.

No tuning solutions are going to magically overcome physics.

You want more top end you are opening the engine or adding forced induction, neither of which are what reflash is for. Go get FlashPro or Ktuner instead cause a reflash is simply not for you.
.
We have quite a few CL9's down under running Kfrank setups with stage 2 cams and valvetrain (and the obligatory timming chain and tensioner upgrades), they have top end, but they also have an all-motor build.

Also, regarding WOT vs Partial throttle. Say you get a Flashpro/Ktuner setup, and you pay someone to do a custom dyno tune (which Reflash is NOT). Would you be happy with just a OPEN LOOP map? or would you expect Closed Loop map as well? because it's MUCH more time consuming to make a close loop map. no sane person would get a full dyno tune and ask for an open loop map only.


As to dyno plots didnt someone already done it?

EDIT, here it is (you can obviously tell which lines were reflashed from the higher redline):

3iquebdt.jpg
 
120k is almost nothing for Honda engine ). I flashed well maintained one's with 300-350+ k kmeters on em and they pulled awesome, had perfect and equal compression across cylinders and margin oil consumption. u don't need to save this engine, its been built for revs, u have to rev it all the time to keep all solenoids and oil passages clean.
 
Fredoops said:
You are not going to get much more out of the top end without cam work and a whole raft of other mods

The OEM cam profile for the k24's (apart from those post facelift TSX cams) are VERY mild. Both duration and lift are as mild as they come.
25 degree VTC does not allow much movement, the RBB manifold is NOT designed for top end breathing.

No tuning solutions are going to magically overcome physics.

You want more top end you are opening the engine or adding forced induction, neither of which are what reflash is for. Go get FlashPro or Ktuner instead cause a reflash is simply not for you.
.
We have quite a few CL9's down under running Kfrank setups with stage 2 cams and valvetrain (and the obligatory timming chain and tensioner upgrades), they have top end, but they also have an all-motor build.


as to dyno plots didnt someone already done it?

EDIT, here it is (you can obviously tell which lines were reflashed from the higher redline):

3iquebdt.jpg
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by "top end" I mean the lameness from 5000 to 7000 on the standard map (that's top end of the rev range as it stands). We've already discussed cams in this forum before. So sorry, I'm no talking about "top end" in that way, and where I mentioned the cams it was only by way of stating the very conservative production release that Honda shoved down the line so as to avoid any engine failures: including the map.

We've had that particular plot several times already, as far as it's possible to tell (from translating the German) it's not a side-by-side reflash comparison.

IN CASE YOU MISUNDERSTAND: WHAT SOME OF US WOULD LIKE TO SEE, IS A SIDE-BY-SIDE COMPARISON, OF ONE CAR, ON A DYNO, UNAMBIGUOUSLY OF JUST THE REFLASH WITH & WITHOUT ........ AS STATED IN MY POST #46.
SERGEY SAYS HE WILL DO THIS. IN THE MEANTIME, SOME DECENT PLOTS ARE IN #38.
 
littlebo said:
its been built for revs, u have to rev it all the time to keep all solenoids and oil passages clean.
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I've got no problem with that :D

The engine has had a easy life by the looks of it, 300k km is about 180(something)k miles over here, Reflash might be on the cards when something available pops up.
 
I think Honda had other reasons to build such losy bolt ons it works with and tune it like that. this engine is strongest one they ever built and it's lifespan is the latest thing they could care bout....

cams aren't mild , they built for torque and low end and they deliver torque very well. just tuned k24 is more strong than ctr one, with proper intake and exhaust parts it shreds k20 easily. only thing they wasn't able to overcome is emissions, so they had to detune it , earth dreams engines even more detuned. next step is turbo which they will try soon.
 
Bri, I was simply talking about the subjectivity of different calibrations and that dyno runs can be manipulated to show higher gains than perhaps what's really there. I think I also stated that videos can be subjective too in my post ;) .

Anyway, seems Littlebo, UKCL9 and Fredoops are delivering on people's requests, which I'm very pleased to see guys. Good work.
 
Shure Steve. I put ppl happiness above my opinions and ways i see this. Maybe later i can improve my english to share my experience to convince guys that dyno plot is just a page in whole book.
 
Ok , Fred made a shootout run and got the plot , i asked him to post it here . I also found one more customers plot of reflash over stock , its sae uncorrected or read high but graphs are good, time between 2 runs around 1 hr.

 
here it is, 2 cold runs

Think my TPS is a bit off (read: broken) but none the less you can see the nice bump where the OEM "dip" used to be. the guy who did the dyno suggested it might not have even been a proper WOT... FML.

5357d1b1-00e8-4245-8c30-3477e1008be8.jpg
 
Freddo, dyno can't be objective just only because it represents only 1 of the modes and just 1 column of the map. everything else left behind the scene and u spend most of engine time in that everything else you don't see. do u still think it's objective ? And ppl like vids coz they see what they get , no one can say how much faster the car will be looking at the paper and they clearly see domination on vid. world been splitted for Dyno lovers and vid lovers lol )
 
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