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Mixed feelings...

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Ben604

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Location
United Kingdom
Car
Accord
Hello,

First post, and it's for ***istance...I hope you'll forgive and then help me!

I bought an '04 iCDTI Tourer EX in October from a non-affiliated dealer. The turbo was a little noisy, but I was ***ured that was "normal" for these cars. Had a quick test drive around the block and everything seemed fine, so took the plunge. It's got a service history and has done 105k. Cost me £3700.

The next day, it didn't start straight away, but sometimes cars don't, so I carried on as usual. Later that day, it took another 2-3 goes to start it, so alarm bells started ringing and while driving home, the engine cut out completely while I was doing about 30 on a straight road...

Got in touch with the dealer, he said he'd speak to his mechanic, but I also mentioned that I was only 10 minutes from an authorised dealer (Two Mills, by Chester) so I'd take it in for a diagnostic in there.

They advised that the turbo needed replacing, so after an argument on the phone with the dealer and 4 letters threatening legal action, he finally replaced the turbo. This took from October 17th till December 20th, during which time, I the car sat on the drive, as advised by Honda.

I picked the car up on Christmas eve, the turbo had been replaced and the car was running much quieter. All good, I thought. But the starting problems will still there (sometimes is shakes quite violently at a fairly low frequency when it doesn't start) and there was a low rumble when accelerating hard in 3rd and 4th, the car has also cut out twice again while driving down perfectly fine roads?!

Sent the guy a text to ask for the turbo documentation (I was ***ured that it would be a brand new turbo with a 12 month warranty!!) and explained the starting issues. No reply.

So, I took it to Honda again for another £50 diagnostic, and they told me the turbo was fine, but it was a 2nd hand replacement and that it needs a new dual mass flywheel. That's what is likely to be causing the vibration and starting issues.

Firstly, do you think I've got recourse to the original seller again? Surely it's got to be worth the £150-odd court fees to try and at least get something towards replacing the DMF or even a refund (my preferred option, obviously)? And, do you think Honda's diagnosis makes sense or do they just want £1500+ to replace the DMF/Clutch. (I have had a quote from another authorised dealer to replace the lot, including labour, for £1000)

It's a shame, because the car is really lovely, best thing I've ever owned.

Any thoughts are most welcome!
 
Whilst reading your description my first thought was DMF, so I wouldn't be surprised if the diagnosis is correct.

As for getting it paid by the original seller, it'd be tough cos you're past the generally accepted timeframe, and you'd have to take it to court and prove that the car was off the road being repaired for X days, so proving the DMF fault was there when you bought it.
 
HuskyMan said:
Whilst reading your description my first thought was DMF, so I wouldn't be surprised if the diagnosis is correct.

As for getting it paid by the original seller, it'd be tough cos you're past the generally accepted timeframe, and you'd have to take it to court and prove that the car was off the road being repaired for X days, so proving the DMF fault was there when you bought it.
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Thanks for the reply, HuskyMan. What is the generally accepted timeframe? I thought it was 6 months to reject a used car?

It's frustrating, because I've probably only used it for about 3 weeks in the 3 months I've had it...:(
 
There's no rule I don't think, generally 3 months it's up to the garage, then up to 6 months is grey, after that it's up to you to prove the fault was there when you bought it.
 
Sale of goods act was amended so the dealer has to prove the fault wasn't there at point of sale. So if a fault is discovered in the first six months of ownership, it is down to him to prove otherwise.
If you've used it it as little as you say I think it's fairly obvious that the fault was there at point of sale.
 
If i was you id phone the garage up and speak to the boss nice and calmly with a few threatening words but not obscene legal terms ,trading standards ect but like i said you will need nice calm voice DONT raise your voice. Does the car still drive if worse scenario happens and there no help Halcroft Honda is only about 30mins from you they were doing a deal on DMF not sure if still on but will sort the car out for you
 
rhinogolf said:
If i was you id phone the garage up and speak to the boss nice and calmly with a few threatening words but not obscene legal terms ,trading standards ect but like i said you will need nice calm voice DONT raise your voice. Does the car still drive if worse scenario happens and there no help Halcroft Honda is only about 30mins from you they were doing a deal on DMF not sure if still on but will sort the car out for you
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To be honest, it's a bit of a one-man-band job. 10-15 cars in a lock up. He is a dealer though, proper company etc.

I don't think I'll get much out of him on the phone, it took 3 months and 4 letters to get him to do the turbo, so he's likely to kick back even harder now I'm going back to him.

I'll send him a letter and take a chance in court.

Thanks for your replys, guys!
 
You would still be better giving 1 quick phone call all he can say is no then follow up with letter m8 you would be surprised with what a mention of trading standards can do when they are in the wrong
 
The trick is to be clear about what you want - that means you need to state the situation so far (including dates), what evidence you have to back up your request, what you would like the dealer to do about it, and the timeframe in which you expect an answer. Do this politely and without emotive language - just the facts, no matter how you feel about the situation. Too many people send a complaint and then expect the other party to figure out what they want.

If the dealer fails to respond or responds in a way that you think is unprofessional or illegal, resend the letter but this time state that you have been given a quote of £x to get the work completed to your satisfaction. Also state that if you don't hear back in writing within a given timeframe (ten working days is more than reasonable) that you will get the work done and then claim back the costs plus expenses incurred through the small claims court. Hopefully it shouldn't come to that, but it's a simple process if necessary and based on what you've described I don't think he'd expect to win.
 
I agree with the advice given by others TA members,.
The key is to establish a time line of events and be able to demonstrate these to a third party, take the time to write these down along with the miles the car had covered since purchase.
If you can establish these facts clearly including the diagnosis's in writing from Honda and share these with the dealer then clearly state that the car was not of merchantable quality when purchased.

One would hope that presented with this situation that the dealer buys back your car, covering your costs rather then going through the courts involving adverse publicity etc
 
Ben are you sure on the diagnosis? When shaking sometimes, is it also making a knocking noise?

Looking at the symptoms, i.e. poor starting and running, it could be something simple like a blocked fuel filter or stuck egr valve.
 
Shocking news Ben im stuck for words on this.It looks like you have brought someone else's problems.
I think if it was me i would try and get a full refund and look else where for another car.
Its a shame because if you look after and serviced correct these cars will go on and on.
 
F6HAD said:
Ben are you sure on the diagnosis? When shaking sometimes, is it also making a knocking noise?

Looking at the symptoms, i.e. poor starting and running, it could be something simple like a blocked fuel filter or stuck egr valve.
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This is exactly what i thought.

A shagged DMF will rattle until you dip the clutch usually. I have never heard of one causing a car to have starting issues.
 
poor starting can be related to a properly messed up DMF i think. If the sensors cannot pick up the location on the flywheel, this can cause starting problems I think.
 
Sounds logical but not sure how true it is mate.. I would say that a DMF that is knackered to that extent will have lots of other symptoms including loud knocks, heavy vibration at idle or certain engine speeds, clutch engaging issues, heavy pedal etc etc
 
F6HAD said:
Sounds logical but not sure how true it is mate.. I would say that a DMF that is knackered to that extent will have lots of other symptoms including loud knocks, heavy vibration at idle or certain engine speeds, clutch engaging issues, heavy pedal etc etc
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That's the thing, I'm only getting the symptoms mentioned and I can only go off what Honda have said :( Surely they'd know without a doubt what the problem was, but they can only say they "suspect" the DMF has failed. Do I have to keep throwing money at them until they give me a solid answer?!

Do you think HH give me a better diagnosis?

I've got a good record of events from my previous legal letters, I just need to add on the events since Christmas as described earlier:


Ref: Honda Accord Tourer – DS04 UVZ

On 06/10/2011 I purchased, and took delivery of, the above vehicle, Honda Accord, from you. On 08/10/2011 I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality, which was confirmed further by an authorised Honda Dealership on 17/10/2011.

I was concerned that the car was not starting first time and had “cut out” while driving over a standard road speed bump. I was also concerned by a loud “whirring” noise from the engine area which I was ***ured by yourself was “normal” for a diesel. I spoke to yourself on 08/10/2011 to voice my concerns, to which you said you would speak to your mechanic to ascertain what the potential causes of the faults may be. I was advised to call back on Monday 10/10/2011, to give you an opportunity to speak to your mechanic. When I called back, I was advised that it could be the battery or glow plugs causing the issue, to which I replied that I was going to take the car to Honda for diagnosis, after which I would call you back to discuss resolving the on-going issues. You agreed with this course of action.

I decided it would be wise to get a 2nd opinion from a Honda dealership to check the general condition of the car – a precaution I make with all car purchases. This took place at the earliest possible appointment – Monday 17/10/2011 at 3pm.

I was informed by Honda that the turbo charger required replacement. They specifically mentioned the “whirring” noise as a cause for investigation as it was not usual for a Honda turbo charger to make such a pronounced sound.

I was advised by Honda to not drive the vehicle as it would cause damage to the engine with the very strong likelihood that the turbo would fail catastrophically, causing further damage.

I have included a copy of the receipt for the diagnosis carried out by Honda.

Section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 requires dealers to supply goods of satisfactory quality. However, the vehicle is clearly unroadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.

I am legally entitled to reject the vehicle and to be reimbursed for its full purchase price of £3800. I look forward to receiving your cheque for this sum within 7 days of today – 24/10/2011. That is on or before 31/10/2011.

An alternative would be to have the vehicle repaired, replacing the faulty turbo with a new one at your cost.

If you fail to reimburse me I shall have no alternative but to issue a claim against you in the county court for recovery of the money without further reference to you.

I have also sent a copy of this letter to your local trading standards office.

Yours sincerely
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Again, thanks for the warm welcome on the forum and the replies, they've given me plenty to think about and some hope that I might get it resolved...!
 
Take it to any other reputable garage, doesn't have to be Honda.
 
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