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2.2 i-ctdi oil questions

F

FRVAC

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Great Britain
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Accord Tourer
I have recently joined the forum. We purchased a 2007 diesel Accord Tourer a couple of months ago. Please excuse what is undoubtedly a very long first post.

I own two cars with i-ctdi engines, the other one for about 18 months now. I've been unclear about the oil grades all of that time, during which I ran ~6000 mile change intervals on 0W40 because it appeared to be within spec. Now the "new" Accord is coming up for a change.

I have noted that members here, in line with the handbook, recommend 0W30 as do other fora I have consulted. I have also looked at the Opie Oils website. Recommended oils appear to be Castrol Edge, Motul, or Exol as well as Lubetech. All these are 0W30, but A3/B4 grade. The handbook however recommends a B1 grade, while indicating that 0W40 (B4) and 5W30 (B1) are also acceptable amongst others. My questions are:

- if a cold 0W40 oil is of similar viscosity to a cold 0W30, and a hot 0W40 is much thinner than a cold 0W30, why would there be a problem using 0W40 (other than reduced economy) if the engine is never used at its limits?

- if (as I presume) the car could be run on 0W30 in midwinter in a very cold northerly climate (eg Greenland), such that the 0W30 would be as thick at a freezing cold start as a 5W30 would be in UK conditions, why is there a problem using 5W30 in the UK climate?

- Why is the concensus for a B4 rather than a B1 oil? I have read the ACEA specs and I note that B1 has (2.9<=HTHS<=3.6, sulphated ash <=1.3, evaporation loss <=15, total base number >=8.0) while B4 has (HTHS>=3.5, SA<=1.6, EL <=13, TBN >=8.0) and B5 has (2.9<=HTHS<=3.6, SA<=1.6, TBN<=13 and TBN >=8.0.) At present I only understand the implications of the HTHS figure, but these specs seem to confirm to me what I have read elsewhere, which is that B5 combines the fuel saving properties of a B1 oil with other properties of a B4 oil. Am I right in thinking that if the handbook recommends B1, and many people successful use B4, that I could use any of B1 or B4 or B5 oil grades?

- Do the updated recommendations from Honda (that I have read about) call for ONLY 0W30, and is that at B1 or B4 or B5 grade?

Oils I am considering at present are:
- Castrol Edge 0W30 B4 (common concensus, available over the counter),
- Mobil 1 0W30 B1 (available on Amazon, matches handbook exactly)
- Lubetech 0W30 B4 (recommended here, cost-effective)
- Mobil 1 0W40 B4 (available everywhere; within spec according to the handbook)
- Comma 5W30 B5 (likewise)
- Carlube 0w30 B5 (the closest to 0W30 B1 that is available over the counter locally)
- Fuchs 0W30 B1 (by far the most expensive of them all, matches the handbook exactly, said to be factory-fill oil)

Thanks for your attention, and again apologies for the long post.
 
Only oil recommended here is 0-30. Not sure that 40 oil is thinner at temperature?

The damage is done when the engine is cold and the engine failures we have seen here are on 40 grade oils.

For the cost of lubetechs 0-30 it really isn't worth the bandwidth discussing the merits of other oils that happen to be in Honda's europe wide chart.

There is such a thing as "over thinking " a problem.

25l 0-30 oil @ 6-8k intervals = 33900 miles of happy driving (don't forget your oem filters though).
 
That is for all n22 engines!

Welcome to TA btw, a little intro in the newbie section would be nice ;)
 
Dan Robinson said:
That is for all n22 engines!

Welcome to TA btw, a little intro in the newbie section would be nice ;)
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Thank you .... I tried, but I couldn't find the newbies section! I did not find a link to it or even the word "newbie" on the front page, and the link from the welcome email did not work.
 
Eerr, its in the main chat area ***led "Newbie" ;)
 
How much was a new engine? 11k? Makes price comparison a non issue don't it :D
 
Pepster said:
I am still amazed why thread like this resurface without fail every month..in various shape and forms which oil is the best what drain frequency ,blah blah blah

0w-30 is set in stone for the diesels there is no two ways about it ..its never going to deviate from that refrence.

Honda strongly recommends the use of of 0W/30 fully synthetic lubricants it come from the highest authority in Honda R&D , there countless article technical documents thousands and thousand of hours of testing and ****ysis

I can appreciate 0w-30 isn't the cheapest oil going on the market it is expensive.. 5w-30 is a cheaper alternative but that doesn't make it ok to use as it listed on the temperature chart in the owners manual.
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I did not mention the cost of 0W30 anywhere in my post nor did I mention any aversion to using it - you will note that I am considering Fuchs 0W30 B1 which is about the most expensive 0w30 available. I am not asking about intervals - I mentioned I already use a 6k interval.

I simply am asking (a) WHY Honda makes that recommendation, and I have pointed out reasons why this is not obvious to me. (B) WHY the 0W30 variants that people recommend are not the same ACEA type as that which is mentioned in the handbook.

If you think my ****ysis is flawed, be so good as to point out why. If you can tell me where to access technical articles from Honda which you mentioned, I would be grateful.
 
Pepster said:
yup you do the cost benefit ****ysis on that ..
epicfail.gif
Click to expand...

I am not particularly trying to save money. I do like to know the reason for doing things.
 
I dont think the B number is particularly important. The 0-30 is vital.

It is vital because of the fine channels and tolerances of the n22 engine.

No one is lecturing you on intervals. I was merely doing the maths as part of my point. But oil questions come up all the time, and the answer is always the same... Half decent 0-30 only. No 5's, no 40's otherwise you could kill the engine, namely the oil pump and/timing chain.

Oh, and you mention cost twice btw ;).

Hope this clears things a little more for you.

As CJ said, if you want reasons have a look through the diesel section at some fairly recent threads of dead engines through wrong graded oil as well as dealers overfilling.
 
Dan Robinson said:
I dont think the B number is particularly important. The 0-30 is vital.

It is vital because of the fine channels and tolerances of the n22 engine.

No one is lecturing you on intervals. I was merely doing the maths as part of my point. But oil questions come up all the time, and the answer is always the same... Half decent 0-30 only. No 5's, no 40's otherwise you could kill the engine, namely the oil pump and/timing chain.

Oh, and you mention cost twice btw ;).

Hope this clears things a little more for you.

As CJ said, if you want reasons have a look through the diesel section at some fairly recent threads of dead engines through wrong graded oil as well as dealers overfilling.
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Dan, thank you for the reply. This is the information I am interested in, and I will indeed consult the diesel section which you have pointed me to.
 
Pepster said:
I strongly suggest you have a good read of all the section for diesels on here (without being patronising) check the pages after pages of members ownership experiences.

The person who need convincing is you and its pointless to have a debate where some ground work is required.
Click to expand...


Pepster, I will do that, thanks for the reference. Ground work is what I am doing by reading through the ACEA specifications and numerous oil datasheets, and latterly by posting my questions here. I don't see anything wrong with trying to further my understanding. Hopefully no offence caused.
 
No offence will be taken Steve, don't worry... part of the issue is that people are so used to Diesels running on chip fat and lard that the iCTDi gets abused when it should be treated with nothing but the best. There is a reason why it is so smooth (my father in law didn't even know he was in a diesel the first time he got in our car); and that is the way Honda have refined the engine in sooo many ways - there are some great threads posted by CJ that show how the engine block is cast, and I seem to recall some flash vids of the combustion process.

You are drilling down into the technicalities a bit more than you need to I feel, but that is the joys of the interweb.

A member - (Meatychi I think) recently had a new engine due to timing chain failure. From memory he had 10-40 oil in his. There is youtube link with a noisy TC and that is likely from oil abuse. Along with Honda OEM fuel filters, it is strange how important these requirements of our engines are.

Even alternative filters from the same manufacturer (Bosch) don't work.

Remember though, most of us here are enthusiasts - and the oil we get from lubetech keeps us happy on both the price and quality fronts. The finer points of grades may well escape us, but the collective experience here is second to only Honda.


Oh, and don't find CJ - Diesel is his pet hate along with Bosch - but there are few people on this earth that know more than he about all things Honda.
 
I'm researching oil at the moment, so bringing this slightly aged thread up. As far as I've been informed the B number is effectively the 'grade' of oil, the higher the better. So Honda recommend a MINIMUM of B1 grade at 0w30, but if you're using 0w40 you need a MINIMUM of B4 grade. Basically it's proving the point that 0w30 is vitally important.

As an aside, I'm looking into the additives used, handy document here. So the fact that it's 'fully synthetic' doesn't mean it's the same as every other fully-synthetic. I'm thinking I'm going to splash out on the Castrol Edge recommended by Honda and those in the know about oil, rather than scrimping on a large tub that's 3 times cheaper! You get what you pay for after all.
 
IMO its far better to change a slightly lesser quality oil every 5k than keep a slightly better oil in for 12k especially on dervs.
 
Probably, but I think it's better to change a good oil every 5k than a rubbish oil every 5k. :D
 
HuskyMan said:
Probably, but I think it's better to change a good oil every 5k than a rubbish oil every 5k. :D
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Well no one should use a rubbish oil any way so your on the right track for sure.
 
Attaboy said:
I don't think Andy's comment deserved this response.
Click to expand...
Why? He was replying after my post in which I showed information relating to oil quality and that I would be choosing the best quality oil I could, disregarding the general opinion of this forum that the cheap fully-synth is OK. I didn't specifically state that I would be changing this expensive oil every 6k miles and I ***ume he thought I would change for good oil every 12k rather than changing the cheaper oil twice as often. My reply is clarifying my stance is a comical way (hence the smiley) by mimicking Andy's reply with the alternative oils/timescales replaced. It's a pretty standard form of humour, particularly on forums where thoughts are often not explained fully and therefore are misconstrued - usually this form of retort results in the misunderstanding party replying with something along the lines of "Oh I thought you meant....... , sorry........, good job......... etc.".
I hope I've fully cleared up your misunderstanding of common forum discussion etiquette and humour with respect to this particular thread of mine.




(BTW; the above is tongue in cheek, just in case you didn't get that)
 
Trev - I didn't see anything wrong with your reply, and no doubt Andy would have shouted up if he felt it was inappropriate in any way.

Cheers
 
F6HAD said:
Trev - I didn't see anything wrong with your reply, and no doubt Andy would have shouted up if he felt it was inappropriate in any way.

Cheers
Click to expand...
I think Cliff just doesn't like me cos I chose a diesel. :D
 
:lol:
 
Why?

Because it was disrespectful to Andy.

He was trying to help you but you just made a silly reply based on his.

Truth is you couldn't be more wrong. The Lubetech oil is ester based, but according to Opie's site the Castrol isn't.
 
Dont worry Trev we are all close on TA and Cliff was just looking out for me.
 
fortunately iv had the best of both lol
 
Sorry Guys, but I'm afraid a lot of the replies and advice on what oil to use seem to be based on ignorance. and an ***umption the an expensive oil is better than a cheaper oil.

It is extremely difficult to prove that 'Brand-X' is a better oil than 'Brand-Y' ? The only way to determine that is to have 2 identical engines, 1 with 'Brand X' oil and the other with 'Brand-Y'. Run both engines in an identical manner for x-thousand miles, and then strip the engines down and scientifically and microspoically measure, and inspect every single component in both engines,

The viscosity rating is based on the temperature extremes experienced in the UK. The viscosity rating is NOT the basis for selecting the BEST oil for your car.

Honda recomend 0w-30 for UK cars, and add, NOTE: 0w-30 is formulated to improve fuel economy.

The important numbers are the 'B' specifications, the higher the number, the higher the spec. Honda state that the oil for a non- DPF engine should meet ACEA B1, B3 or B5.
For the later DPF Diesels then you need an oil that meets ACEA C2 or C3.

You can buy Carlube Triple 'R' Fully synthetic 0w-30 that meets ACEA B5 at £20 for 5 litres, or you can buy Fuchs motor oil to the same spec but at £60 for $ litres - the choice is yours.

=================================================

The full ACEA specs are:

A1 Fuel Economy Petrol †
A2 Standard performance level
A3 High performance and / or extended drain
A5 Fuel economy petrol with extended drain capability †
B1 Fuel Economy diesel †
B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)
B3 High performance and / or extended drain
B4 For direct injection passenger car diesel engines
B5 Fuel economy diesel with extended drain capability †

† Not suitable for all engines - should ONLY be used in engines specifying this fuel efficient grade. Refer to the manufacturer handbook of contact your local dealer if you're not sure.

Low SAPS diesel (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous, Sulphur)
For diesel engines fitted with a diesel particulate filter (DPF)

C1 Low SAPS (0.5% ash) fuel efficient
C2 Mid SAPS (0.8% ash) fuel efficient, performance
C3 Mid SAPS (0.8% ash)
 
I don't think there's many people on this forum who recommend an expensive oil, in fact almost any thread started on oil recommends buying the stupidly cheap 25l drum from Lubetech. Basically the advice we dish out to diesel owners is get ANYTHING just make sure it's 0w30.
 
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