2006 i-ctdi jerky engine and higher chain whine after timing chain replacement

[treboRRRR]

Hello,

Sorry for long post!

I have researched the similar issues with 7gen i-ctdi timing chain replacement where people mostly have higher timing chain whine after replacement (most of the reported cases) - with Original chain kit and aftermarket ones. It seems there is something else going on and no one to my knowledge have found nor reported the solution.

So my problems after timing chain kit replacement are much bigger than other peoples
Where do i even begin....
Firstly sorry for grammar, English is not my native language

So my car in question is Accord 2006 CN1 N22A1 stock engine no mods! - 540 000 km on the clock

So after timing chain replacement engine developed rough idle when cold and jerky acceleration combined with possible valve/lifter clicking/ticking noise which in some cases are so loud i release the gas pedal and accelerate slowly. Engine starts normal and when warm idle is good but i can hear inside the engine something is not 100% and to my ear it might come under section of the engine - oil pump chain not installed correctly?. Because engine starts fine and has power, so i ***ume at least timing chain is aligned correctly (i think). I have honda hds and did ECM reset with it, do reset the ECM because it is stated in service manual that after you replace any parts it needs to be done.

Copy from manual:
SEA5E24K72100000000BBAT10

The inside ECM stores various specific data to correct the system even when there is no electrical power such as the battery negative terminal or No. 8 FI ECU (ECM) (15 A) fuse are disconnected. But stored data based on failure parts should be cleared by using the ‘‘CLEAR COMMAND'' of the HDS, if parts are replaced.

So ECM reset made very little to no difference, problem is still there.

But the more i drive the better it gets. I have carefully driven almost 2 weeks now and last two days when engine is warm it is mostly ok, but not ideal! So no it is not fine.

I know it is near impossible to diagnose what is bad here. I haven't done the injector leak back test yet, but i will in couple of days.

Firstly i thought that there is oil pressure problem for some reason, so i installed oil pressure gauge to rule that out...pressure seems normal (compared numbers with manual - engine warm at 80C should read 820rpm idle 16psi and 3000rpm should read 59psi - my readings where point on correct). Why i thought it was oil pressure issue was because i found oil coming (small amount) form intercooler hose which travels from turbo outlet over gearbox to intercooler radiator. So the hose connection point

SO most likely injector problem? (HDS injector test, while idle, is all in norms, only nr 4 and 3 are 1.5-2mg off - but that should be totally in normal parameters because ECU/ECM will compensate that - correct me if i'm wrong) - i do not seem to find how to monitor injectors while driving with HDS so i could see what is happening while i drive. Can it be done with drive recording function?

Yes i understand that bad injectors will cause jerky engine while accelerating and valve noise, but i think there is something else involved here because in some point when engine is warm and randomly chain whine goes down the jerky engine also goes away (not 100% but lets say 80-90% - butt-dyno). Chain tension is done by oil pressure to tensioner so i think it is something to do with oil pressure.
Can it be that oil chain wasn't installed correctly? It needs to be aligned correctly (because balancing inside oil pump? ) - so question is what will happen if it is not aligned correctly (sprocket and oil chain)? Can it make engine behave like that? - BUT! If they managed to misalign those sprockets and chains then OMG they need to be blind because there is wayyy to many marks and colored chain links to miss that - but i am not surprised if they did.

YES i know you all roll your eyes and think why the hell haven't you taken the car back to the service place where the work was done? Answer is because the issue is intermittent and not that logical i wanted to check what is wrong with the engine myself before i take it back. I have spoken with the manager (he is family friend so all covered there ) - and we seem not to find the reason - he did all the work according to the workshop manual (at least he tells me that - hard to trust anything at this point...

So to better understand what was changed while in repair shop and what was changed by me before the repair shop:

BEFORE REPAIR SHOP by me:

New OEM Denso fuel filter
New OEM IMRC solenoid - i had P2004 come up and the cleaning the valve and whole intake didn´t fully resolve that error code - sure cleaning made it much much better but in some cases P2004 showed up and resolved totally after new IMRC solenoid.

Had no issues with the car except black smoke under hard accel and little black smoke while driving normally - most likely injectors or valve seals (but engine doesn´t burn oil tho, almost nothing so i ***ume injectors) will do compression test and injector leak back test and report back.

IN REPAIR SHOP:

Timing chain kit and oil chain kit:
(timing chain, timing chain upper sprocket, chain guides A and B, tensioning arm and tensioner - all original and correct parts) and oil chain, tensioner arm and tensioner, chain sprocket and also a timing chain and oil chain combo sprocket (sits on crankshaft). Lastly crankshaft balancing pulley also new and oem.
I used oem gaskets, hondabond ht and honda pro 1216E liquid gasket for chain cover and oil pan.

NB! Only difference with old and new spare parts were both chain tensioners - new ones are so called "free-flowing" ones which do not have that locking mechanism what doesn't allow tension to go off if there is no oil pressure, other that that they are same spare parts. All spare parts originate from Honda warehouse from Poland (i think this is central and biggest warehouse for Honda - correct if i'm wrong).

Also new OEM injector copper seals etc - basically all seals and o-rings needed to do that work and some extra.

New clutch kit with new dual mass flywheel from LUK (actually did a research, the LUK spare part was exactly same spare part honda uses, so i didn´t want to pay about 1200 euros for honda badged cartbox
Clutch kit was uprated 325 spare part not the original 315, other than that same spare part. Will not list all the other parts which was done with clutch system because i do not think it matters cuz not related with the problem.

So this post it not only for my problem but to all people who have the similar problem with chain whine after replacement (sometimes even louder than old chain). I would like to figure out what is the solution for that higher chain whine after replacing it. Like many people in internet have reported that official dealer shops also do not know what is the issue. Frustrating to say the least.

For summary what have i checked already:
Oil pressure - oil gauge installed
Oil filter - no problems there, but i still replaced it for good measure

will check compression and injectors leak back tonight when i get back home.

Any recommendations what more to check except injectors and compression?

Thank you all for you attention and help, if given

 

[F6HAD]

The sound you’re hearing might actually be injector knock rather than chain rattle. If the car is high mileage it’s not unsual for the injectors to give up, especially once removed and refitted. Were they fitted back into the same chambers they were removed from? A 2mg deviation is actually quite high in my opinion, so see what your leakback test shows.

have you checked for injector leaks? I would also be tempted to blank the egr with that black smoke, most likely it’s become slow operating.

 

[treboRRRR]

The sound you’re hearing might actually be injector knock rather than chain rattle. If the car is high mileage it’s not unsual for the injectors to give up, especially once removed and refitted. Were they fitted back into the same chambers they were removed from? A 2mg deviation is actually quite high in my opinion, so see what your leakback test shows.

have you checked for injector leaks? I would also be tempted to blank the egr with that black smoke, most likely it’s become slow operating.

I cleaned the whole intake and egr valve system in ultrasonic cleaner and only after i installer new imrc valve solenoid it made things better in terms of black smoke and car was much lively after that…..until i took the car to the timing chain replacement.

Yes all injectors are in right cylinder, i even checked ecu data and injector codes to be sure, all in the right place.

So i did the injector leakback test and here are the results:

Also took the injectors out and cleaned them in ultrasonic cleaner

at first they looked like this:

after cleaning:

So very little change in engine, but i must say that engine ran little more stable at least in idle now but while driving it still made valve clicking type noise.
A went to the honda dealer and managed to do a test drive with a repair manager there and he aslo said that itmost likely is injectors.

Do tomorrow i will take injectors to the testing. We have local diesel center where they can test the injectors to see if i am correct.
Will report back.

 

[treboRRRR]

Also this is data from my Honda HDS injector test while idle:

Before cleaning:

And after cleaning: :O even bigger deviation

at this point benchtesting here i come.

I predict i end up replacing all of them in the end….

But stilll i can not understand why is the chain whining!?!?!?

 

[F6HAD]

The 4th injector from that leakback test is definitely leaking back more than the others, I would swap all 4 with a known decent set. Cleaning and testing them can often make them worse which is probably why your results look worse.

Are you sure it’s your chain whining and not an aux belt pulley?

 

[treboRRRR]

yes it leaks back little bit more, but as stated almost everywhere in internet, it shouldn’t be that bad. As i unerstand 4-5 minute mark one should be 3-4 times more than the other. But i may be wrong.

I am 100% sure it is chain, all the auxilary belt bearings where changed at the same time as timing chain. And i see how oil pressure rise from the gauge will make the chain louder (while ig yhe engine gets warm the pressure lowers abit and the chain whine also lowers, but never to the point that it was before). I am far from only one having the same chain whine issue. And it drives me crazy no one has any idea why.

The 4th injector from that leakback test is definitely leaking back more than the others, I would swap all 4 with a known decent set. Cleaning and testing them can often make them worse which is probably why your results look worse.

Are you sure it’s your chain whining and not an aux belt pulley?

 

[F6HAD]

I can’t speak for the internet, but my experience tells me that injector balance is notably out.

As for your chain noise, if you replaced the pulleys at the same time then even more reason to suspect one of them as the culprit. Chains tend to rattle not whine.. unless perhaps it’s under too much stress and tension.

 

[treboRRRR]

I can’t speak for the internet, but my experience tells me that injector balance is notably out.

As for your chain noise, if you replaced the pulleys at the same time then even more reason to suspect one of them as the culprit. Chains tend to rattle not whine.. unless perhaps it’s under too much stress and tension.

So the injector test is done now and the results are that all 4 didn´t pass the test. 3 of 4 injectors are bad especially around 1000-2000rpm range, they are really of the charts and bad pressure. Will post the numbers chart when i go get them. So time for new injectors

As for chain noise, it seems the noise is really consistent with oil pressure, noise goes up when the pressure goes up and when i see pressure go lower, noise goes lower (same goes when the oil gets warmer the pressure gets lower and i see and hear it with my ears.) It is not a pulley bearing, it is exactly the same noise chain would make under high pressure). And the noise comes exactly where the chain lives.

It is the exact same whining noise those engines make all the time even when factory new....but now it is so loud it is not normal. People turn their heads on the street when i pass them - and whole internet is full of the same issue which is never resolved. Sad....

 

[treboRRRR]

So here are the injector test results:

As i was informed by the testing company, all four are faulty, even tho nr 1 injector passed the test it had issues in test nr 8 (marked with red color). So as it felt on the car (from 1000rpm to 2000rpm the valves made bad sound) the injector according to test results was also really bad at lower ranges.

All new injectors ordered, should get them by tomorrow. Will see what the results are then.

Wish me luck...

 

[treboRRRR]

Reporting back:
All four injectors changed to new bosch injectors and new calibration codes programmed to ECU. No more valve click or hesitant power. I now have smooth engine and much more power. BUT chain whine still there. I hope in about 1-2 years new tensioner will work it self in and the sound will "normalize" or "lower" - i see no other reason for that issue...

 

[F6HAD]

Yep I can only put it down to a new chain and tensioner being a bit tight and needing some run in time.