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50k Diesel Engine failure

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andrewjames

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Location
Essex
Car
7th Gen 2.2 CDTI EX
Hi Guys,

After a bit of advice

I took the car into a local Honda service center say a month or so ago for its 50k Service paid a hefty sum and got the car back same day
then disater struck exactly one week after, big end failuire, after an initial inspection at a local engine specialist
they found the oil level to be overfilled by the same distance between min and mix markers and advised me too much oil would / could cause crank failure
naturally i took the car back to Honda and expressed my concerns of it been overfilled.
Honda have had the vehicle inspected (internal and external) and are claiming this was due to a lack of servicing and that a new engine is required.
the oil level was put down to the injector fueling cyc 4 with no compression hence unburnt fuel reaching the sump increasing the oil level
the honda service book states every 12500 or 12 months whatever comes first
i do around 12-15k a year mileage wise and have owned the car since dec last year
i agree that my service was 4239 miles late based on mileage but early based on monthly intervals
I always check relevant oil levels and have never seen any indication of any oil wanring lights nor was any engine codes reported in the OBD scan.
Every mechanic i have spoken too has said its strange, these engines do not go.
Currently the best deal i can find is around £2000 for engine and fitting via an ebay seller.
so my question is where do i stand, i intend to contact honda head office and lodge a complaint but what are my chances of them ***isting with the repairs.

Full honda servicing as below.
0 - Sept 2006
10934 - August 2007
29317 - Dec 2008
37131 - July 2009
53880 - Sept 2010 (my service)

Its a 2006 cdti ex 2.2 would that be a N22A1 or N22A2 or N22B thanks guys for any ***istance.
 
Sorry to hear of your problems.

I would indeed contact HUK and ask them if there is anything they can do. By all accounts they are helpful and friendly, so I would tread softly with them. Overfilling of the oil would certainly kill the engine - there is a recent thread about a dealer doing this twice.

£2000 to supply and fit anew engine seems rather low to me - do you have a link for that?

Hopefully a more technical member will be online soon to help with that side.
 
Welcome to TypeAccord, and sorry to hear of your troubles.

Thankfully such engine failures are rare, but not unheard of. From what I've personally seen, there is always a human error of some sort involved somewhere down the line, either incorrect oil grade, too much or too little oil, or that someone has been inside the engine for repair work and not reassembled correctly.

Unfortunately 4239 miles past the service interval is a lot, irrespective of whether it's earlier than the monthly intervals (remember its mile or monthly intervals but whichever comes sooner)

Despite this, I don't think going 4k miles over the service interval would kill an engine in this way. Were you offered an explanation as to why your cylinder fuelling cycle was supposedly out?

I think you should definitely see some sort of an Engine Management error code for such a serious malfunction. Who has ****ysed the oil? Is it 7 litres of oil or 6 litres + 1 litre of diesel?

We have some Honda techies on this forum, so better to wait for them to chip in.

Which dealership did the servicing and supposed overfilling of oil?
 
Sorry to here this mate i cant add to this as Fahad has gave you a good response.The only thing i would say is as above incorrect oil levels will kill this engine.
 
Andrew,

Firstly welcome along, extremely unfortuante circumstances but welcome anyway.

In my opinion as already advised ring HUK and explain the situation, but most importantly be calm with them, it is not there fault, however I think you have a reasonable case against the dealer on the grounds that they did a major service on it a week prior, presumably no faults were picked up and notified to you, that you didn't get corrected/fixed.

You state that you regularly checked oil levels and drove 12 to 15k a year and presumably had little or no problems.

In one week from having a major service (it would be handy to know exactly what was and wasn't done on this service) suddenly with all the checks made, new oil and filter, oil levels checked and confirmed by dealer, cylinder 4 lost all compression and all the diesel from that injector increased the oil level and blew the big end (you could do with knowing what mileage was done since servicing)

I would ***ume that HUK will advise that it is a dealer issue, but may ***ist.

My question to the dealer would be if the car was so badly neglected as suggested, then why was no serious problem highlighted, corrected or checked, however I think you will need legal advice.

Presumably you have fully comp insurance, as a suggestion if you haven't already done so contact them, you may have legal cover that maybe able to ***ist, equally you may also be able to claim on your insurance for the engine, depends on the policy wording.

You have some things in your favour like the short time frame after it was serviced and the longer time frame that the car ran before the service, equally though the service schedule was not kept to which weakens the case

Best of luck
 
Did you feel a difference in performance prior to the failure and compared to befor the service. Presumably if your 4th cylinder was not firing correctly there would have been some sort of loss of power pehaps even the engine would have not felt right? If you did not notice a drop in power i would think the faliure was not caused by a cylinder not compressing properly, rather more likely is that it was overfilled which increased the stresses in the engine leading to sudden faliure.

Best of luck, to me this sounds like it may be a dealer fault they do not want to pay for, stick to your guns.
 
I always doubted the service schedules from day one, mine gets it's oil changed every 6,000 and a filter and oil every 12,000.
 
@ Dan Robinson

Thanks for the reply, the £2000 relates to various Ebay sellers offering a recondiction lump with various work undertaken, warranty varies from 3 - 24 months on these.
Can you give me a link to that thread? would be interested to read as the dealer and the independant inspection both said it was impossible to overfill due to the filling equipment

@ F6HAD

The explanation given for the high oil level in the sump was given that its probable the inecjtor in cyc 4 was still fueling but due to low compression on 4, no combustion was taking place
hence seeping through to the sump raising the level, i asked for a diesel contamination test but they didnt have the means, plus does the vehichle have a DPF? there may be traces of Diesel due to this.
i agree i was over on the mileage there is no doubting this, but i also agree 4k shouldnt kill an engine with plenty of "last years" oil. 5.9 Litres is the capacity.
Id rather not say what dealership at this stage.

@ CJM

Thanks for the advice on this, i pretty much asked the same question, why was no faults found during the service, they agreed no issues were found other than a reported tappety noise which was found to be an exhaust mounting TSB which was adjusted
the service was a standard Honda 50K service for these engines, i am told 5.9L oil, Oil, Fuel, Air and Pollen filters and Rocker Cover Gasket (some confusion over this, some dealers said they did others didnt, does anyone know is it requrired on a Diesel with self adjusters?)

@ Govtec

Thanks for the reply, sorry i mislead you, Cyc 4 was not firing after the big end failuire on the crank bearings, engine was still running so plenty of unburnt fuel wouldve made its way down to the sump.
 
Sorry to hear about your problem Andrew and welcome to the forum btw :(

As a matter of course I now always check my oil level before I leave the garage car park after a service. Just to make sure it has been changed and not overfilled.

Am a little confused. Are you saying the engine is still running? I've just seen on honest john review of the cr-v of a reported big end failure shortly after a service.

With regards the oil, these engines are very fussy and even if the long service intervals haven't caused this problem the timing chain will be feeling the effects. 12k is the max and I believe it is for "ideal" conditions. Extreme conditions, which the handbook says includes a lot of start stop driving will reduce this substantially. Do you know what oil has been used up to now?

Not wanting to take the tread of on a tangent but does anyone have details of this exhaust mounting TSB?
 
nodrogs said:
Sorry to hear about your problem Andrew and welcome to the forum btw :)

As a matter of course I now always check my oil level before I leave the garage car park after a service. Just to make sure it has been changed and not overfilled.

Am a little confused. Are you saying the engine is still running? I've just seen on honest john review of the cr-v of a reported big end failure shortly after a service.

With regards the oil, these engines are very fussy and even if the long service intervals haven't caused this problem the timing chain will be feeling the effects. 12k is the max and I believe it is for "ideal" conditions. Extreme conditions, which the handbook says includes a lot of start stop driving will reduce this substantially. Do you know what oil has been used up to now?

Not wanting to take the tread of on a tangent but does anyone have details of this exhaust mounting TSB?
Click to expand...

Hi nodrogs,

Can you link me to that review?
I understand the TSB for timing chains only affected 03-05 models, would that be the N22A1 and not N22A2 maybe?
Unsure of the previous grade of oil. however i know it was fully synth at the recent service.
Yep the engine was still running, albeit a little on the noisy side!!!

i dont have the TSB for the exhaust mounting however i informed the advisor of a slight tappety noise prior to service, a call several hours later informed me the technician noticed no noise, but did check for TSB's found the exhaust manifold bracket misalignment, made a modification and personally i found the noise had vanished so was pleased that was the cause.
 
nodrogs said:
Sorry to hear about your problem Andrew and welcome to the forum btw :)

As a matter of course I now always check my oil level before I leave the garage car park after a service. Just to make sure it has been changed and not overfilled.
Click to expand...


Sound advice Stephen, I've had mine overfilled twice by a dealership, which I've mentioned before in another thread.

Trouble is you shouldn't have to and you feel cheeky and untrusting to check it on the dealership forecourt, but I have to say from my experience I think it is a must.

I changed my oil myself last weekend and used the Exol 0-30w, as I don't trust my local dealer to do it properly !
 
Hi Andrew. My thoughts.

By the sounds of your description the level was about 1 to 1.5 litres overfilled. This would not cause a big end failure. Even if extremely over filled it would not cause a big end failure.

It would cause more oil turbulance in the crankcase and it could cause a positive crankcase pressure (should always be in depression). This would cause more oil to be sucked through the engines breather system. Excess oil consumed by the engine could cause poor emissions and it is not good for the diesel aftertreatment systems - the Diesel Oxidisation Catalyst (DOC) and the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) if it has one? Long term it could cause injector nozzle fouling and excess carbon build up in the combustion chamber and on valves.

If it has a DPF then it is possible for the oil level to actually rise slightly if the Honda 2.2 uses an active regeneration system (i'm not sure?) i.e. it post injects fuel through the combustion chamber to set off the DOC (causes an exotherm) and then regenerates the DPF. Some of this fuel finds its way into the oil and can cause the level to rise, but only by about 0.5 litre maximum (between services)

Worst case would be; if excessively overfilled it could cause a runaway condition whereby so much oil is being consumed by the engine that it runs away by itself without fuelling., but it will quickly consume all its oil and then you would get big end failures. However. This situation is almost impossble these days as todays engine management systems are very clever and will recognise this condition and close the throttle off to cut off the air supply and prevent this.

My main concerns would be with the poor servicing. The second service was nearly 6,000 miles overdue and your last one over 4,000 miles overdue. This is not good. These could cause excessive soot levels in your oil and if you have a DPF you could also have excess fuel in oil. Either or both of these would be highly detrimental to the quality of lubrication of all bearings, chains and anything that requires a good quality oil supply.

Service intervals are there for a reason! The manufacturrers know what they are doing. There is also very little point of servicing your vehicle more frequently than recommended, you are just throwing good money away. If serviced as should then, cars should do a minimum of 150,000 with no issues.

Because of this I think you will struggle with any recompense from the dealer or Honda - Sorry. However ther'es no harm in trying (you don't ask, you don't get).

Best regards

Daz.
 
Andrew, this is the link: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/honda/cr-v-2002/?section=bad

Yes the TSB is for the 04/05 models but I've read of newer ones rattling as well. As you'll read over and over on here the only oil is 0W-30. Fully synthetic could be anything.

If the engine is still running, are you looking at getting it rebuilt as opposed to a new one? Does anyone know is this typically a problem after oil changes and why (not priming the new filter etc.).

Thanks for the info on the exhaust mani bracket.
 
CJM said:
Sound advice Stephen, I've had mine overfilled twice by a dealership, which I've mentioned before in another thread. Trouble is you shouldn't have to and you feel cheeky and untrusting to check it on the dealership forecourt, but I have to say from my experience I think it is a must. I changed my oil myself last weekend and used the Exol 0-30w, as I don't trust my local dealer to do it properly !
Click to expand...

I make a point of telling dealers I don't like the oil half way up the dipstick. To be fair to my local dealer he made a note on the job card. And when I collected the car he came out and checked it with me. Thought that was good.

I don't think the Accord has a DPF?
 
No 7th gen Accord has a DPF, that was only introduced on the Euro 5 compliant IDTEC engines.
 
Thanks for all the imput guys

Can i ask does anyone know the exact engine code?

N22.....?
 
An auto filling machine does not mean it is filling the correct amount - not only does it have to be calibrated properly, but it has to be used correctly. I can't remember the thread ***le, but I think it was Carl (CJM) that had the problem... I am sure we find it somewhere, it was fairly recent....
 
Groovy said:
There is also very little point of servicing your vehicle more frequently than recommended, you are just throwing good money away.
Click to expand...


Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more. We've been running with the Accord scene for a few years now, and I can tell you from personal experience that the ICTDI engine benefits from more frequent oil changes with the right oil. You can listen to my engine and compare it to others of similar age and mileage that have had the recommended oil changes and you will 'hear' the difference.

Every time I change the oil, I can genuinely feel the difference and most members will agree with this. You will also find that changing the transmission fluid earlier than recommended by Honda will give you a positive feel, and you can actually see the metal filings inside the old oil.

The same goes for the fuel filter.. Honda make recommendations based on a mix of economic and practical factors, not on 'ideal' running conditions.

If they thought people would stick to it and that it wouldn't harm the overall cost of ownership commercial model, I'm sure they would recommend 1k oil change intervals!!

The BEST thing you can do for your engine is give it frequent oil changes with the right oil, keep a regular check of oil levels, and use the best quality of fuel you can buy.

My own car and the thankfully lack of problems I've had in 2.5 years of ownership is testament to this...
 
Dan Robinson said:
An auto filling machine does not mean it is filling the correct amount - not only does it have to be calibrated properly, but it has to be used correctly. I can't remember the thread ***le, but I think it was Carl (CJM) that had the problem... I am sure we find it somewhere, it was fairly recent....
Click to expand...


Dan,

Yep it was me

The link where I mentioned it was :


Doing my own service
 
F6HAD said:
Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more. We've been running with the Accord scene for a few years now, and I can tell you from personal experience that the ICTDI engine benefits from more frequent oil changes with the right oil. You can listen to my engine and compare it to others of similar age and mileage that have had the recommended oil changes and you will 'hear' the difference.

Every time I change the oil, I can genuinely feel the difference and most members will agree with this. You will also find that changing the transmission fluid earlier than recommended by Honda will give you a positive feel, and you can actually see the metal filings inside the old oil.

The same goes for the fuel filter.. Honda make recommendations based on a mix of economic and practical factors, not on 'ideal' running conditions.

If they thought people would stick to it and that it wouldn't harm the overall cost of ownership commercial model, I'm sure they would recommend 1k oil change intervals!!

The BEST thing you can do for your engine is give it frequent oil changes with the right oil, keep a regular check of oil levels, and use the best quality of fuel you can buy.

My own car and the thankfully lack of problems I've had in 2.5 years of ownership is testament to this...
Click to expand...
 
Been reading on net that some Subarus seem to have a tendency to pop the big end bearings shortly after a service. Read that this might have been due to the dealer not priming the new oil filter before fitting and causing the bearings to possibly run dry for a short while. Some people have been disconnecting the crank sensor to let the engine turn over and prime the oil system before starting the engine.

What do the mechanically minded people reckon? Has this failure been because of poor maintenance, poor servicing technique by the dealer (can we even prime the canister paper filters that the Accord has?), oil pump failure, too low oil levels or too high oil levels?
 
Hi F6HAD.
Are you certain you are comparing like for like though? There will be quite a lot of vehicles that havn't been serviced as they should.

I have never felt the difference after an oil change - engine or transmission. I think everyone thinks it will or should feel better so that makes you think it has made a difference; but I doubt it, it will be the placebo effect. Yes new oil will improve lubrication and reduce friction, but the levels are so small that you would not be able to tell the difference.

Mines serviced to schedule, its done 117,000 miles, is quiet as ever and sweet as a nut - no issues. I expect to get at least 200,000 out of this engine with no base engine issues.

The only way to prove it is to do a controlled test like this:

1. Do a drive cycle including the type of driving you know you think it feels better.
2. This route must be the same for every drive and in the same conditions (dry) and at the same ambient temperature, with the engine up to temperature.
3. Drive this route in exactly the same mannor 6 times or more (you need a decent sample size) stopping for about 30 mins each time (or the time it will take to do the oil change).
4. At every stop period give the car to someone else (for 30 mins) who is also going to do the oil change. They must take the car out of site from you.
5. During one of these stops said person will do the oil change - they will note which drive number.
6. This process must be constant each time - no variations
7. Make a note of when you think you feel the difference.
8. Compare.

If they match I will be impressed. Do the same again at the next oil change and see if it matches again. If it does you are definatley onto something and let me know please.

I agree the manufacturers are all trying to reduce the cost of ownership and increase service intervals. But they would not do this at the expense of increased warranty risk (especially Honda).
Very occassionally they do get wrong, but its pretty rare.

Fuel filters are very important but do not need to be changed more frequently than scheduled. It is also vital not to go beyong the schedule as modern high pressure pumps and injectors are produced to such fine tolerancees they do not cope with any debris bigger than about 5 microns. The manufacturers wouldn't go at risk. These are very high cost components. You can change more frequently if you want but little point.

Best regards.
Daz.
 
Daz, how long have you had your Accord?

Trust me, I know my car and the difference after an oil change is not placebo. You seem to be suggesting that changing filters more often than recommended is in some way a bad thing because of the fine tolerances and high pressure pumps?

Sorry.. but my personal experience after 2.5 years and some 55k miles begs to differ. Bear in mind I undertake most of the maintenance myself and have been helping to run this place and another Accord club for most of that time - I've seen nearly every ICTDI problem under the sun, and in every instance it's been down to poor maintenance or human error.
 
F6HAD said:
Daz, how long have you had your Accord?

Trust me, I know my car and the difference after an oil change is not placebo. You seem to be suggesting that changing filters more often than recommended is in some way a bad thing because of the fine tolerances and high pressure pumps?

Sorry.. but my personal experience after 2.5 years and some 55k miles begs to differ. Bear in mind I undertake most of the maintenance myself and have been helping to run this place and another Accord club for most of that time - I've seen nearly every ICTDI problem under the sun, and in every instance it's been down to poor maintenance or human error.
Click to expand...


could also be down to trying to get F1 performance!!
 
Where is there any suggestion that the original poster has blown his engine due to trying to get F1 performance?
 
F6HAD said:
Where is there any suggestion that the original poster has blown his engine due to trying to get F1 performance?
Click to expand...


There has not been any such suggestion, but allowing service intervals to be so lax, indicates something else to me. Same as you I respect my outlay and treat it accordingly if you will pardon the pun. I am also trying to build up my post count.
 
Pepster said:
Sorry to be a kill joy please avoid this in the future.;) as Per TA rules..

Rule "10. Obsessive posting (AKA message trolling or spamming) Any excessive posting by members which admins or mods feel has little value or contribution to the thread or forum as a whole will invoke a warning. If such activity persists after a warning has been given the user shall have posting priviledges revoked or be banned - at discretion."
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thank you Lord Sugar. I'll get my coat
 
CJ's technically right, but in this instance I had suggested to John to get his post count up to access the hidden sections.

John, apologies for any confusion on our part, CJ has obviously missed my other post to you.

As for your comments in this thread.. I think I see where you're coming from, but you're confusing the issue as tuning an engine can be done both responsibly and irresponsibly, but there is no suggestion the engine has been messed with here.

To me it sounds like the dealer has over filled it... but I'm just going on what I'm reading.
 
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