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Acceleration rattle :/

B

bear1

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Location
Galway
Car
Honda Accord CDTI
Hello everyone,

I'm a newbie here and unfortunately I guess it's for the wrong reasons that I joined :(
I bought a 04 CDTI Tourer last month and within a few weeks I was told that the timing chain needs changing.
Bite the bullet and had it changed and of course 3 of the 4 injectors broke so they had to be replaced as well (mechanic used 2nd hand parts to keep the costs down).
Now before the car went in you could only hear the chain whirring away and no noises upon acceleration and the power delivery was nice and consistent.
I did notice hwoever prior to the repair that when you floored the car it would surge once it hit 3000rpms and the EML light would go on.
Anyway I got the car back last Friday and when I was driving back I noticed a horribler rattling noise when I'm accelerating.
On idle it is perfectly fine.
I brought it back and the mechanic said it's a normal Accord noise. I'm not convinced.
It's very loud. If you are just cruising without accelerating then the noise isn't there but the moment you put your foot down the noise comes back.
Would I be right in thinking that it could be an injector issue? A few have said the heat shield but I'm unsure tbh.
 
Firstly, there is no horrible rattling, 'normal Accord noise'... these engines are actually pretty quiet, except when first started up on a really cold morning.

There is a heat shield (on the exhaust manifold) but it does not have to touched to replace the timing chains (you don't even go near it!). And I have never heard of this shield causing any problems on our engines. I can't imagine how replacing either/both the chains might directly cause a rattle under load.

I think you may be correct to think it may be an injector... can you remove the plastic engine top cover (four 10mm AF nuts, mind the washers!) and shine a torch down each injector to look for signs of a leak? Maybe also run the engine with the cover off and look/listen for leakage.

Welcome to TA Kevin. I hope we can help you.
 
Jon_G said:
Thank you Jon :)
I believe you may be right concerning the heat shield, the only other reason I can think of that may involve the heat shield is if it has suddenly become loose but it seems like a no no to me.
The only way I could possibly describe the rattle would be like a tappety noise. Just weird that on idle the engine sounds as sweet as a nut and only when flooring it does the noise become audible.
Out of curiosity, if the injector would be leaking or if the 3 new injectors were leaking why would it cause such a noise? And wouldn't it be present also when the is idling?
Click to expand...
 
Sounds like injector knock and I would also check with your mechanic whether he coded the new injectors in or not.

The surge you described is something unrelated, most likely an old or non standard fuel filter.

What was the error code when the eml came on?
 
The fuel filter is brand new, but it wouldn't surprise me if the filter wasn't the Bosch one.
I did say to change all filters along with the chains but when I went to pick it up he said that the filter was brand new and there was no need to change it.
He had all the codes cleared so nothing was showing up, the EML only came back on last night so I haven't been able to get a diagnostics done yet.
He did point to what he suspected was the culprit of the surging but I can't for life of me think of the part name. For sure it isn't the EGR but it was at the front right side of the engine and had what seemed a turbo hose connecting to it. Throttle body?
Anyway, I'd second your guess at injector know. I ***ume the only cure for this is a brand new injector right?
 
Below is a picture of one of my injectors. The 6-digit code 'BAAK55' you can see relates to injector calibration and performance, and must be programmed in to the vehicle ECU to allow the ECU to make corrections for that specific injector performance. If you replace injectors then the relevant 6-digit code must also be written to the ECU using specialist equipment. It would be worth checking with the garage to confirm that this has been done.
IMAG0434_zps28f10f6d.jpg
 
Bloody work network won't let me see the picture! I'll take a look at home.
I'll ***ume then that each injector has a different code and that each code needs to be programmed into the ECU for optimal performance.
Thanks again everyonef or the advice.
 
bear1 said:
I'll ***ume then that each injector has a different code and that each code needs to be programmed into the ECU for optimal performance.
Click to expand...
Exactly! So worth asking the garage if they did it.

And do have a quick look to see if the injectors are leaking... if all parts aren't cleaned up really well, or the correct new gaskets aren't used there is a high risk of leakage. Leakage is worse under load, as more fuel is injected, so the fuel burn/explosion generates more force.
 
Ok will do.
If they haven't programmed the injectors in is it a simple case of reprogramming the injectors (I imagine they need to be removed etc) and or if one is leaking then a new injector is needed correct?
 
No, it's the ECU that needs to be programmed, using the 6-digit code that's written on the injector.

This programming requires specialist electronic/computing equipment, such as a Honda Diagnostic System, or one of the Snap-On range (with the necessary Honda key) that will connect to the vehicle ECU.
 
Ok I understand you now.
Sorry for all the questions, first Honda and I'm usually more familiar with Italian cars :)
So relatively speaking it's a simple enough job but by someone who has the proper computer to do it.
 
Yes, easy job with the right equipment, but hopefully they already did it. Maybe if you do check the injectors for leakage you could also make a note of the injector codes... that way (if you do have to pay for it to be done) you can negotiate a cheaper price because you've saved the guy having to take off the cover?

MORE IMPORTANTLY - seeing as you're familiar with Italian cars, then please can you help me with this problem... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/18545-any-fiat-experts/
 
The car will be checked out on Saturday and that's when I'll hopefully know what is causing this. Praying to God it's something easy and small.
 
Ok so I'll update this. Brought the car to another mechanic who ran a diagnostics and came back with the following error:

Inlet manifold valve stuck closed. I believe this MAY be P2006 fault but I can't remember.

The injectors didn't seem to be leaking and of course when I brought it to him there was almost no noise but this got me thinking.
Could the inlet manifold valve being stuck closed cause the rattle on acceleration?
The mechanic did take it for a drive and noticed it was down on power so he also said he'd wager on the injectors not being good. Said he'd need the car for 2 days to remove the injectors and test them one by one in the machine and if any are faulty then he would renovate them.
What do you guys think?
 
Egr valve is stuck or sticking and excessive soot build up as a result has caused the inlet flaps to stick.

The best solution is to remove the inlet manifold and thoroughly clean it, and then blank off the egr and remap it.
 
Could this cause the rattling upon acceleration and a lack of power?
Regarding blanking off the EGR, quite soon our version of your MOT will be bringing in some EGR check in order to pass. Can't be 100% sure as to what that check will be I'll check it out.
I've been doing some reading as well about the solenoid that is prone to failing, is this a completely different scenario?
 
bear1 said:
Could this cause the rattling upon acceleration and a lack of power?
Regarding blanking off the EGR, quite soon our version of your MOT will be bringing in some EGR check in order to pass. Can't be 100% sure as to what that check will be I'll check it out.
I've been doing some reading as well about the solenoid that is prone to failing, is this a completely different scenario?
Click to expand...
No sure about the rattle being the IMRC, but that would account for the lack of power. Did you ever find out if the injectors were correctly coded to the ECU?

Blanking the EGR valve is unlikely to result in a much increased amount of measureable NOx, but I have no idea about proposed Irish MoT test equipment!

Yes, the Frequency Solenoid Valve (FSV) that controls the IMRC can and does fail. Disconnecting it can sometimes bring about a limited improvement, more info on this here... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/1127-p2004-imrc-intake-manifold-runner-control-problems/?hl=frequency
 
They were coded fine, but it's the condition of the injectors which is questionable which leads me to believe there are two faults with the engine.

1) at least one of the "new" injectors which were replaced is/are faulty - other mechainc was sure of this as well.

and 2) I believe the IM is clogged with dirt which in turn has damaged the solenoid which after reading many threads on here seems to be the likely reason why my fault "Inlet manifold valve stuck" error is showing up. Another reason why I'm sure the valve has failed is because the MIL can come on sometimes and the power is quite low and tother times when accelerating aggresively the car jolts and loses power which then gives the MIL light.

What I will do.
I will be returning the car to the mechanic who did the work with the request that the injectors are removed and check FOC and then for him to remove the inlet manifold and give it a good clean to see if this fixes my issue. Failing that I'll need a new solenoid :/
Have I missed anything?
 
I doubt the actual inlet manifold itself being a bit crudded up will be causing these issues. But certainly it is common that the wider inlet system (particularly the EGR pipework and valve, plus the IMRC) DOES become sooted up so badly that either the EGR valve sticks open a bit and/or the IMRC swirl valves become sticky. Both of these can often be freed off with careful cleaning.

I agree with your suggestion that there could now be two faults... the EGR valve/IMRC plus an injector.

The FSV is quite expensive... best to follow the guidance in that thread I linked to confidently diagnose a problem with it befor splashing out!
 
The FSV is that Denso unit I see people posting about correct? Over 100 Pounds for a small sensor... bloody hell.
As a side note, I can see one of the parts (name has slipped my mind) move when the car is revved so that I can rule out now.
During the day I can't see any smoke but at night time with cars lights behind me I can see it spewing out smoke but with no power.
So I am of the theory that the IM is caked in rubbish and I'm hoping to have it completely cleaned out in the coming days.
Pain in the *** all this, hope I can have it resolved before Xmas.
 
Small update for now.
I went to the car and removed the cover to do an exhaust manifold check and for the time being all is smell-less.
Whilst I had the cover off I decided to unplug the solenoid and go for a drive. I noticed that it seemed more free to accelerate - not a huge difference but a bit noticeable.
Especially in first gear it was more eager and lag didn't seem so bad. MIL light came on immediately.
I took a picture of the solenoid as I know there are two types but mine seems like the one that isn't suited to a 04 Accord (I could be totally wrong though) but I've no idea how to upload it here.
Car is going back on Saturday to the mechanic to take a look again at what is causing the noise.
Fingers crossed I can get this saga over once and for all.
 
bear1 said:
I took a picture of the solenoid as I know there are two types but mine seems like the one that isn't suited to a 04 Accord (I could be totally wrong though) but I've no idea how to upload it here.
Click to expand...
you need to upload the picture to a photo-sharing website (e.g. photobucket)
then use the "share" icons in photobucket to get the "bb-code" and paste it straight into the post
there's a good guide pinned in the Nebies section


As a quick guide to what's involved .....the uploaded picture in photobucket will have a url.
Instead of using the "share" icons in photobucket, just put "[ img ]" in front of the url of the image (include the [] around "img" without spaces, I had to put spaces so that the forum software would show it)
then put "[ /img ]" at the end of the url of the image (include the [] around "/img" without spaces, etc)


e.g. (this is just a random picture on the internet)
http://www.hdwallpapersimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Winter-Tiger-Wild-Cat-Images.jpg

becomes (shown with spaces, so that the forum software displays the text rather than the image)

[ img ]http://www.hdwallpapersimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Winter-Tiger-Wild-Cat-Images.jpg[ /img ]

and without the spaces it would be the proper bb-code and the forum software will just display the picture
 
Ok so I'm back from the mechanic who did another diagnostics on the car. Coming back as P2008.
So he said it's one of 2 things, either the solenoid is faulty or the throttle body.
He then did a test on the injectors and these are the readings he got back for all 4, what do you think?

0,3
-0,3
0,1
0,0

The mechianc said that 0,0 is a perfect reading and that rest would be deemed acceptable.
So back to the error code, we switched the solenoid to a petrol Accords one and he asked me to drive around for a few days and see if the fault comes back.
So far I've been flooring it a lot and no sign of hesitation.
The car will be going back in 2 weeks to him as he wants to switch all 4 injectors with ones he knows are good and see if the rattle disappears.
Then he will do another ECU scan and see if P2008 shows up, if not then he will order the proper solenoid and fit it.
 
If a substitute FSV has been fitted and the car is now OK, then that would strongly suggest that the problem was actually the original FSV... it's a good test and about as definite as you can ever be!

Those 'injector test' results might be OK, but hard to tell without any units. Using freddofrog's HDS we got these results for mine just a few weeks ago, which shows my worst-case to be around +1.25mg...
IMAG0444_zps4340bb8d.jpg
 
It doesn't go like a rocket ship but I'm able to floor it in each gear with no jolting, I mean the power cutting off. Got it up to the red line in 3rd gear which was around 150kmh and no jolts so I'd guess as well that the solenoid was faulty. Time will tell anyway if the code will come back because if it does then its a throttle body problem :( What I have noticed though since changing the solenoid is that the car wheelspins in 2nd whereas before it wouldn't at all. Probably means nothing though.
Your parameters are much different than mine :D but if the injectors after the swap still give me a rattling noise then I will be stumped. I enquired about the chains to make sure they were actually new chains and he confirmed that both the oil chain and camshaft chain are brand new and that it isn't the chains or they would constantly be rattling.
I think I'm getting close to the finding the solution, just two more weeks unti I'll know for sure.
 
Blank your egr and see if it temporarily cures your issue.
 
I'm thinking of asking the guy to blank it off when he does the injector swap.
Someone told me that the rattling could be worn cam lobes possibly, sound plausible?
 
bear1 said:
I'm thinking of asking the guy to blank it off when he does the injector swap...
Click to expand...
In the first post you already told us that this had been done, so now I'm wondering why this needs doing again? The results you posted looked OK, so far as I can tell.




bear1 said:
Someone told me that the rattling could be worn cam lobes possibly, sound plausible?
Click to expand...
No.



You've been told that the problem is with the IMRC, and the replacement FSV appears to prove that this is the case. I'd wait to see if this sorts out the rattle.

I think you should avoid having more than one thing done at a time.
 
No no, I said that I wasn't sure about blanking it off as new changes may be coming in to check this hasn't been blanked off during our yearly test.
Anyway for now I'll see how the solenoid experiment works out and then in 2 weeks see if swapping the injectors cures the issue also.
 
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