Clutch & DMF replaced (7th Gen)

[Ambrosia]

As some of you may have seen in the South West Dealers thread, my clutch was on the way & needed replacing so took it to Howards Honda in Weston Super Mare. The car went in last week & they confirmed that it needed a replacement clutch, so set about the task.

I then got a phonecall that I would guess most of us would dread. They took it for a test run after fitting the new clutch, and found that it was still slipping in 3rd & 4th gear.

After having a lengthy conversation with the service manager, he explained that when they removed the old clutch, the DMF had a degree of play in it that split the camp on whether that too would need replacing due to excess play. Knowing how expensive they are to replace, and that it wasn't 100% that it was on definitely on its way too, they fitted the new clutch. Then, when they took the car for a test run, the clutch slip was still present, so worst fears were confirmed.

The service manager (Dave) I have to say was pretty good on the whole. He explained that they do everything they can to avoid replacing the DMF unless absolutely necessary as not only was it hellishly expensie for me, but would take up a considerable chunk of their time again to remove the old clutch & fit the new DMF. He explained that he'd try to get some money off from Honda as a gesture of goodwilll, but did set the expectation that they may refuse.

After a paniced text to Faddy about this (cheers for the advice btw!), I asked them to keep the old clutch & DMF so I could photograph it for reference.

Here's the old friction plate (notice the darker colour towards the top)

And the pressure plate which had failed



Finally, the old DMF (again, notice the darker colour at the top from heat)

There was noticeable play in the DMF from just having a quick fiddle with it, and apparently this was more prevelant when actually on the car. As I half expected, Honda refused to discount the DMF due to the mileage being over 50k (done 77k), so Dave did a 5% discount on the Honda Happiness price for the clutch replacement as a gesture of goodwill. Also, Howards WSM do a 10% discount for the S2000 club, and Dave said he'd be happy to look at this for us if he's appraoached by the club (maybe an 'official' type e-mail from Admins/Mods?)

So, the upshot being the car now drives like an absolute dream - feels really tight & torquey, although my bank account has been absolutely slaughtered! I have to admit to not knowing much about the DMF function before this whole expereience, but found this video to be extremely useful:

DMF 3D animation

Al.

 

[F6HAD]

Al, disappointing news and whilst DMF replacements are thankfully rare - they are not unheard of. I can't see your pics, can you check the links please... but I will remain undecided until I see the pics.

I don't recall any heat marks on my DMF at all and you can probably check in my clutch replacement thread and look at my pics to draw a comparison - and my car had covered a good 35k on remap at that time..

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/96-review-clutch-install-accord-i-ctdi/

At the end of the day, it's a car and it will cost money. I know it doesn't make it any easier to swallow the pill but at least you can enjoy it properly now. Do bear in mind that some play is normal and there is a tolerance they build in - again refer to my thread to see how they check.

I still wish you'd taken it to Holdcroft - I would never doubt their advice. It's also unusual for them to spend all that time to install a clutch just to see if it's still slipping! An experienced technician should be able to check for tolerance and make up his mind by looking at the quidance notes from Honda.

Can I ask how long did it take them to call you from leaving the car and to the point where they said you need a DMF i.e. the time it took them to install and then take it for a test drive to diagnose it's still slipping?

Also, I'm moving this to the diesel section.

Cheers

 

[F6HAD]

The heat marks could be explained by an incorrectly installed clutch too in my opinion. Al I know you didn't buy the car new, what mileage is it on?

Also, can you check your friction plate and DMF to see if it's marked as LUK anywhere on it? If it is, then it's not the original clutch the car left the factory with from Japan.. If it's been replaced, and the correct clutch alignment tool not used to load the clutch, it could have been incorrectly seated and causing the build up on one side of the fritction plate and DMF face. Can you also take pics of your pressure plate, specifically the self adjusting spring mechanism? I'm interested to see which setting it's on...

 

[Ambrosia]

Fahad/CJ,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Was a difficult encounter - I'm struggling to get my head around the cause/effect & what could have caused the DMF to fail (***uming that it in fact did).

To answer your questions:

Fahad - I dropped the car off last Tuesday morning, and got a phone call at lunchtime to say that the clutch was indeed slipping, and needed replacing. They fitted the clutch by Wednesday afternoon, took it for a test drive & then called re the DMF. They had to order the new DMF from Belgium, and had the lot done by Friday evening.

I left the old parts with the dealer to dispose of once I'd photographed them, so couldn't tell you if they had LUK on them.

CJ - Sorry pal, don't know what the measurements were/method was used.

Re Holdcroft - ideally I would have taken it there, but couldn't fit it in with the trip to Wakefield at the weekend as they're shut on Sundays. As I mentioned in the South West thread, I knew there was a degree of risk with being a guinea pig & using this dealership.

For some reason when I posted the images, they came out as a line of code. I copied the IMG code from Photobucket & used the 'insert image' icon. If I'm missing something obvious with posting images, do shout as I've got an image of the pressure plate showing the springs.

 

[F6HAD]

Let's see the pics of the pressure plate too then mate.

To be honest there is little that can be done now that you've disposed of the parts and settled the bill, but it's good shared info for our members to learn from.

 

[Ambrosia]

Agreed - if there's a glaring gaff & I've had the DMF replaced unnecessarily by the dealership, then at the very least it serves as a lesson to other members.

Here's the pressure plate showing the self adjusting springs:

* Fahad - just noticed if you zoom in to the '11o'clock' position on that pressure plate, there looks to be an LUK logo.....

 

[F6HAD]

Yup well spotted there Al. So we can ***ume it's had a clutch at some point unless for some freak reason the Japs were buying clutches from the UK to fit to their Jap built cars

Looking at the springs, it also looks like it'***** the lowest setting which is common all ICTDI clutch slips i've seen before..

I don't want to make you feel worse mate, not at all, but I just feel really doubtful over whether that DMF should have been replaced. Let's wait for one of the HH techies to come online and see it. I might drop Beefy a PM with it.

I'm clearly no expert and this speculation is probably not helping things.

 

[vile]

Sorry to here that AL.Fahad could it be a case of the old clutch was wrongly set up without the proper tool like in your thread.If this was not the original clutch/ if so that may have damaged the DMF

 

[F6HAD]

Yup said that already but want to stop guessing now...

 

[vile]

Yup said that already but want to stop guessing now...

Sorry Fahad i missed that bit but agree with you on that :blush:

 

[vile]

Guys i just found this it may be of some use towards this thread

http://www.schaeffler-aftermarket.com/content.luk_as.de/en/services_luk_as/special_tools/sactool/sac_tool.jsp

 

[shab_the_man]

Sorry to hear that Al. Just for reference how much is a dual mass flywheel these days?

 

[vile]

Sorry to hear that Al. Just for reference how much is a dual mass flywheel these days?

I believe Shabz its about £1000 but thats what iv herd.Can someone back that price up please.

 

[Ambrosia]

Yup well spotted there Al. So we can ***ume it's had a clutch at some point unless for some freak reason the **** were buying clutches from the UK to fit to their Jap built cars :blush:

Looking at the springs, it also looks like it'***** the lowest setting which is common all ICTDI clutch slips i've seen before..

I don't want to make you feel worse mate, not at all, but I just feel really doubtful over whether that DMF should have been replaced. Let's wait for one of the HH techies to come online and see it. I might drop Beefy a PM with it.

I'm clearly no expert and this speculation is probably not helping things.

No worries Fahad - with the DMF so rarely failing, that same thought is rattling around my head too. Would be interested to hear what the HH techies think.

Sorry to hear that Al. Just for reference how much is a dual mass flywheel these days?

Cheers Shabz. It was just over £800 for the part & fitting. Sadly that + the clutch replacement = torn a new one!!

 

[shab_the_man]

Also Al do you know if they used that special tool to install the new clutch in the first place?

Main thing is that the car is running good now right.

 

[Hot Fuzz]

Hi Al glad you got things sorted and the car is now driving well. Despite some doubts and questions over having the DMF replaced and the fact that it prob doesn't help with the feeling of having to spend alot of money. You can now at least put your foot down and get some enhanced performance from her and the remap( on private roads and track of coarse :blush: )

 

[Ambrosia]

They did indeed Shabz. I remembered seeing it on Fahad's write up when he had his clutch replaced & was chatting to the service manager about it. He seemed impressed when I knew what he was on about.

Little did he know Fahad had done such a comprehensive review! :blush:

 

[vile]

Hi Al glad you got things sorted and the car is now driving well. Despite some doubts and questions over having the DMF replaced and the fact that it prob doesn't help with the feeling of having to spend alot of money. You can now at least put your foot down and get some enhanced performance from her and the remap( on private roads and track of coarse :blush: )

I would agree to that as well Paul

 

[Ambrosia]

Hi Al glad you got things sorted and the car is now driving well. Despite some doubts and questions over having the DMF replaced and the fact that it prob doesn't help with the feeling of having to spend alot of money. You can now at least put your foot down and get some enhanced performance from her and the remap( on private roads and track of coarse :blush: )

Thanks Chadders. It certainly feels great to drive after the work. Only thing I've noticed is that occasionally it's very stiff when putting it into 1st and sometimes 3rd. As it's only been a couple of days, I'm guessing this will loosen up.

 

[F6HAD]

Shouldn't feel stiff Al, for that price did they not do the clutch fluid too?

 

[asif]

Damn so the Accord has the similare problem as the MK4 Golf , my DMF and clutch was replaced on my Golf by my brother cost in the region of £800 for him also
How common is it to go on the Accord?

 

[asif]

Also what kinda miles does it go on the Accord, reason I ask because all the Accord Diesels i'm seeing on the trader seem to all have well over 100k on them i'm guessing that is well and truly into clutch+DMF replacement region?

 

[F6HAD]

Asif, do a search there are a good few threads on this. There is a design flaw which means the pressure plate springs weaken causing the in gear slip. However when the clutch is replaced, they can adjust the cruise control pedal switch to cure the issue, and Honda have subsidised the price so you can have a clutch supplied and fitted at any Honda dealer for £585 (otherwise almost £1k).

DMF failures are very very rare.

 

[Ambrosia]

Shouldn't feel stiff Al, for that price did they not do the clutch fluid too?

They did indeed - probably that cold Wakefield air that it was exposed to over the weekend caused it!!
:lol:
Took it for a drive last night & gear changes were absolutely fine.

 

[Discodave]

No worries Fahad - with the DMF so rarely failing, that same thought is rattling around my head too. Would be interested to hear what the HH techies think.



Cheers Shabz. It was just over £800 for the part & fitting. Sadly that + the clutch replacement = torn a new one!!

I thought a DMF was around the £350 mark, I hope that they did not charge your the rest in labour :lol:

 

[F6HAD]

Nope DMF for the diesel is around £1200 list I believe, however recently reduced substantially.. I've heard on the qt that Honda are pushing dealers to shift the surplus stock of DMF's and discounting them right down to almost £650... might explain why some dealers may insist that your DMF is screwed when it's not.. Although I'm not implying that has happened in this instance..

 

[beefy_634]

without checking previous posts i ***ume the measuring methods for the DMF have been described before but the specification you are after is a movement of 3.5 to 35mm. if it moves any less or more than this honda deam the flywheel as needing replacing. it is obviously not ideal when a car is sent out only for the clutch to slip again but i am sure the garage had the customers best interests in mind. HH have replaced DMF's but it is maybe 1 in 10 that have needed replacement. perhapse it was on the upper limit of 35mm?

 

[Jon2.2]

hi, can i ask how much was your final bill all in? so i know the ball park figure should mines snuff it

 

[kingnesh]

Well if its just the clutch £585 all in including fitting, as its under Honda Happiness. If it is the flywheel, it seems to vary slightly between dealers, but I am sure it was mentioned in this thread somewhere

 

[Ambrosia]

without checking previous posts i ***ume the measuring methods for the DMF have been described before but the specification you are after is a movement of 3.5 to 35mm. if it moves any less or more than this honda deam the flywheel as needing replacing. it is obviously not ideal when a car is sent out only for the clutch to slip again but i am sure the garage had the customers best interests in mind. HH have replaced DMF's but it is maybe 1 in 10 that have needed replacement. perhapse it was on the upper limit of 35mm?

The guy at Howards in WSM was pretty good on the whole & funnily enough mentioned that 1 in 10 figure as well. Although he didn't manage to swing a discount on the DMF from Honda, he did a discount on the clutch fitting instead.