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Diesel 096 Battery in a 2.4 petrol car - will it fit ?

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dionysius

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2.4EX tourer auto
Hi

Need a new battery for my 2.4petol augo tourer.
The recommended fitment 075 battery is a woefully small 45Ah capacity nd I want something much heavier duty.

I notice the 2.2diesel cars have 096 battery listed which is much meatier.

But will it fit ? Dimensions are larger notably longer and taller.

Failing this do people know of a heavier battery that will fit or what the max dimensions one can go to are ?

There are a couple of battery codes that have same same width and length as 075 but are a bit taller eg 1.5cm - is there room for this extra height ?

Cheers in advance !
 
Trying not to sound too stupid here but wouldn't a larger battery cause some harm/stress to the alternator? Unless you get a more powerful alternator to match or have I just got it all wrong? I'm pretty sure the diesel has a larger and higher rated alternator to cope but happy to be told otherwise
 
No, you'd be OK just fitting a larger battery - it wouldn't burden the alternator, as the alternator's output is self-limited. Think of it as fitting a larger cistern to your home toilet... the water will still be drawn from the mains at the same rate it always was, it'll just take longer to fill up when the tank (battery) is empty.

While it may seem simple to fit a battery from a diesel to a petrol, I suspect there will be a few extra bits needed like the battery tray and possibly cables (not sure the connections are the same)?
 
Are you sure this is really necessary?

Honda designed the car with a 45Ah battery and it does the job. The starter doesn't need to generate huge pressures to create ignition like it does in a diesel engine because the spark plugs take care of that.

Mine can flag a bit in the colder months due to non-use as I cycle to work sometimes but the non-use is the issue not the capacity and I've found the solution is a smart charger.
 
Cliffordski said:
Are you sure this is really necessary?

Honda designed the car with a 45Ah battery and it does the job. The starter doesn't need to generate huge pressures to create ignition like it does in a diesel engine because the spark plugs take care of that.
Click to expand...
+1

There would have to be a reason for needing a higher capacity battery, such as if you tend to use a significant amount of battery power when the engine is turned off (possibly use of the radio or lights for extended periods whilst parked up?).
 
Just to add...I know for sure the combination of cold and limited use is the cause here...I don't need to charge the battery ever over the summer despite cycling a lot...and in Jan/Feb/early March I don't charge it ever because I put the bike away and use the car every day.
 
Well to kind if hijack op's thread but with the same topic in my case I have always had a 45ah batter from honda whenever mine hits the sack but I have a large ish audio install so was always under the impression that if I got a bigger battery I would need a bigger alternator.

My current draw requires a battery close to 125ah, now I know I can't get that in easy terms I could make it better by fitting say a larger 65ah or 75ah battery for example. At the moment when the bass hits my lights dim because of the draw obviously and the only way to really eradicate that issue is to get a separate battery in the boot but then it gets expensive etc etc.

So having a stock alternator and forgetting for a second the size issue, what would be the highest capacity battery in terms of ah I could get away with?

Thanks :)
 
There's no electrical limit regarding the largest battery you can fit, merely physical considerations. I think a second battery in the boot is by far the best idea, tbh.
 
Oh well I'm looking forward to my next battery swap :)

I was debating that but I would need to split the power from 1 alternator to two batteries which would cost money and also I'm sure it wouldn't be good for the alternator
 
Hamid92 said:
Oh well I'm looking forward to my next battery swap :)

I was debating that but I would need to split the power from 1 alternator to two batteries which would cost money and also I'm sure it wouldn't be good for the alternator
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Just put the two batteries in parallel using a heavy-duty cable to link the positive terminals together and connect the boot battery negative terminal to the car bodywork. This will then 'look' to the alternator like one big battery with the capacity of both added together. The alternator will be fine, it has built-in electronics to regulate its own output.
 
Oh...

And I can put any battery? Even a big 7 series one? Interesting thanks bud
 
dionysius said:
Hi

Need a new battery for my 2.4petol augo tourer.
The recommended fitment 075 battery is a woefully small 45Ah capacity nd I want something much heavier duty.

I notice the 2.2diesel cars have 096 battery listed which is much meatier.

But will it fit ? Dimensions are larger notably longer and taller.

Failing this do people know of a heavier battery that will fit or what the max dimensions one can go to are ?

There are a couple of battery codes that have same same width and length as 075 but are a bit taller eg 1.5cm - is there room for this extra height ?

Cheers in advance !
Click to expand...

Although the battery in the 2.4 looks small and only has 45 Ah, it is rated to dish out 330 CCA for 30 seconds.

Ah gives you the amount of time that a small to moderate current can be maintained at 12V. So a 30 Ah battery would be able to maintain 30A for 1 hour or 15A for 2 hours.

CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) is the amount of current a battery can provide at 0 °F for 30 seconds while maintaining at least 1.2 volts per cell (7.2 volts for a car battery).

There is no formula that relates Ah to CCA i.e. you cannot calculate the CCA from Ah, and vice versa. This is because CCA is related mainly to plate surface area in the battery, while Ah is related mainly to the amount of material in the plates. This means that two batteries with the same amount of plate material, one with a lot of thin plates and the other with a few thick ones, could easily have the same Ah rating but very different CCA.

Basically, unless you have some extra equipment in the car that is going to drain the battery faster than the alternator can charge it, there is no reason to change the battery. And if there is equipment that is going to drain the battery faster than the alternator can charge it, then the alternator should be uprated too.

See also the next reply below, because fitting a bigger battery could damage the starter motor.


Jon_G said:
Just put the two batteries in parallel using a heavy-duty cable to link the positive terminals together and connect the boot battery negative terminal to the car bodywork. This will then 'look' to the alternator like one big battery with the capacity of both added together. The alternator will be fine, it has built-in electronics to regulate its own output.
Click to expand...
ouch, I did like your post #8 on its own, but now that you've added more detail, I'm beginning to get worried by this.

If there is equipment that is draining the battery faster than the alternator can charge it, then adding a bigger battery won't help because, surely, the alternator requires uprating as well ??

IMO Hamid needs to go about this properly. He needs to borrow or buy a "dc current clamp meter" and check the current being drawn from the battery with the amp playing, without the engine running, with everything else switched off. Whilst a dc current clamp may not show the variations in current with the bass content, it should indicate the average current draw, which is what you need to know in order to decide if the alternator requires uprating. If the average current draw is not large, then the only reason for requiring another battery, is simply to act as large capacitor to smooth out the voltage when the bass is drawing current.

tbh I am puzzled as to why the amp does not have large capacitors internally to achieve this, a good mains-powered amp should have a transformer/rectifier/capacitor setup big enough for this issue, and I don't see why a car amp shouldn't have this too.

If you do decide to fit another battery for the amp, IMO you should cable the amp directly to that battery, and fit a diode with large current-rating, plus fuse, from the alternator to that battery. That way, the battery for the amp is electrically isolated from providing power to the starter motor during starting.

You should not uprate the total CCA to the starter, because it could damage the starter motor with too high a voltage during the CCA period.

But, as I pointed out above, if the additional load that the amp takes is too big, then the alternator would need uprating too.


edt: see also this post for the starter motor details in the 2.4
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/18360-has-my-alternator-seized-or-my-engine/?p=200909
 
While I agree that a larger alternator is required if the continuous load is greater that the existing alternator's rated output, the query (I thought) was about running equipment with the engine turned off. Apologies if I misunderstood the question.

I would personally avoid using a diode for battery separation purposes, as the forward voltage drop of the diode (typically 0.7v) will prevent the battery from becoming fully charged. It might appear to function well enough, but an ignition-controlled isolating relay would be preferable to ensure complete charging. And well done for mentioning a fuse!

I completely follow your logic, but personally I doubt that having a battery (or combination of batteries) with too high a CCA rating would damage the starter motor.High-capacity battery packs used by garages and breakdown recovery companies, for example, have a relatively high CCA figure and fitting a 'superior/upgrade' battery with a higher CCA rating isn't an unusual thing to do. The starter motor would never normally be operated for long enough to cause serious over-heating (and thus damage) and with a higher CCA rated battery the starter will spin a little faster and so should then operate for a shorter period to mitigate the greater power (heat) dissipated in the windings?
 
Thanks guys that was an interesting read even though I understood pretty much non of it. Anyways just to point out that I never use my subs when the car is off and have a cut off switch next to the headlight leveling switch to turn it on/off whenever I want which is handy! I played it once when the car was off for about 30 seconds and had a flat battery lol.

Anyways my setup is as follows, oem battery and alternator, 0awg wiring throughout, 150 anl fuse, power capacitor to keep the voltage steady, a alpine pdx 1.1000 amp with so many built in stuff I can't remember also has 4 25amp fuses (£900 rrp), followed to 2 x alpine type r 12" subs rated to 600watts rms each. I also have an rca adapter because our head units don't have rca output and a dice duo kit for aux and iPhone so you could say it's a decent well thought out system until you get the actual charging side of things! Any ideas? Whenever the bass hits on 50%+ volume the lights dim...
 
Jon_G said:
While I agree that a larger alternator is required if the continuous load is greater that the existing alternator's rated output, the query (I thought) was about running equipment with the engine turned off. Apologies if I misunderstood the question.

I would personally avoid using a diode for battery separation purposes, as the forward voltage drop of the diode (typically 0.7v) will prevent the battery from becoming fully charged. It might appear to function well enough, but an ignition-controlled isolating relay would be preferable to ensure complete charging. And well done for mentioning a fuse!

I completely follow your logic, but personally I doubt that having a battery (or combination of batteries) with too high a CCA rating would damage the starter motor.High-capacity battery packs used by garages and breakdown recovery companies, for example, have a relatively high CCA figure and fitting a 'superior/upgrade' battery with a higher CCA rating isn't an unusual thing to do. The starter motor would never normally be operated for long enough to cause serious over-heating (and thus damage) and with a higher CCA rated battery the starter will spin a little faster and so should then operate for a shorter period to mitigate the greater power (heat) dissipated in the windings?
Click to expand...
The 0.7 voltage drop will not matter, because the battery is not going to be used for starting the engine, so a lower charged voltage will work for the amp. From the spec of that amp, it definitely needs its own battery IMO, and as I say, the battery should be isolated by some means to stop it from being connected to the starter. An amp of that spec is too much for the battery in the 2.4, and the battery system and wiring for that amp needs a BIG re-think. I don't like the idea of the standard alternator being connected to it either when the engine is running.

Although battery packs are used in garages and breakdown recovery companies, they are not being used in the same car all the time. If the CCA rating is too high for the starter, then the life-time of the starter will be shortened, because the kW going into the starter will be higher than the spec. This will come out in the other thread, when I have the specs for the diesel starters (which I expect to be bigger than the specs for the 2.4 petrol).

Also, think on this situation Jon .....
Car is parked on a driveway in gear with the handbrake on. There is a party in the house, and the car needs to be moved further up the driveway, onto a lawn (say) so that more people can park on the driveway. Some drunk person tries to start the car but it won't start (because it's in gear with the handbrake on). They keep trying to start the car. What will happen to the starter motor if the CCA rating of the battery is too big ?????

A hypothetical example, but it makes the point that the CCA of the battery system must match the CCA of the starter. If the battery system can supply too many volt-amps to the starter when the starter is stalled, then god help the person who advised that the big CCA battery was put into the car without some kind of protection. And anyway, even if a stalled starter situation will not occur, then as I pointed out, a CCA larger than deign will shorten the starer's life-time.
 
Jon_g I already have a 2.7 I think farad capacitor mate but the amp is so damn powerful lol and it's very under rated. It's rated at 1000rms but I had it tested when they were fitting it and it was pushing out 1217rms.

Freddofrog thanks for the input I know I need to re do alot of it but it's soooo expensive! It has been running fine for 4 years, in that time I've replaced the alternator once a few months ago along with 2 batteries. It's not so bad at all but just the lights dimming is slightly worrying/annoying
 
General
(SPK Connect)
4Layer Glass Epoxy PC Board
Class-D
Layered Installation
1 Channel (Mono) Operation
Thermal Management Processor
Subsonic Filter
Adjustable Crossover (LP)
MOSFET Power Supply
DC-DC PWM Power Supply
Discrete Pre-Amp Stage
MOSFET Final Outputs
STAR Circuitry
Auto Over-Current Protection
Top Mounted Blue LED Power/Status Indicator
Integrated Wire and Mounting Screw Terminals
One Side Terminal Layout
Gold Plated RCA Input Connectors
Continuously Adjustable Gain Control
Gold Plated Power Screw Terminals
Non-Fading Pre-Amp Output
Dimensions: 257mm x 192mm x 62mm
RMS Power
[2ohms @14.4V 1%THD]: 1000W x 1 (20Hz - 200Hz)
[4ohms @14.4V 1%THD]: 1000W x 1 (20Hz - 200Hz)
Bass Engine� Sound Tuning
Crossover Frequency Adjustment: 50Hz-200Hz, -24dB oct (LP)
 
^ wow what a spec, utterly amazing !!!!

you do realise that in the 70's, even though transistor amps and integrated circuits existed, there was nothing like this to run off 12V car batteries, not even an inverter to be able to run a mains powered amp !!!

I knew some West Indian guys who had a 1000W valve amp, which was huge, and they had maaaassive bass speakers and horn tweeters. Their Reagae was awesome, best place to stand in the room was against a wall. The valve amp was made up from several bridged KT88 push-pull systems, all in one huge heavy box (loads of massive transformers for the push-pull and bridging).

So.... you've already been through an alternator and 2 batteries ....not surprised. :lol:

With a big battery, it could be the starter motor or even the flywheel next, these two snippets are from one of my automotive engineering "Bibles".



img163.jpg



img164.jpg






To summarise what they're saying: a battery system with too large CCA will give the starter too much torque, which can damage the windings, or rip the pinion or flywheel ring off.
 
Wow that's a very interesting thanks for posting. I was always told it was amazing and that's why it's so expensive to buy! It has so many fail safes to keep the power constant and to keep it from self destructing. Now you say I have been through 1 alternator and 2 batteries but tbh that's in 4 years of hard hitting bass which requires a minimum of 125ah battery I think. The alternator was 5/6 years old when it died so it has held up pretty well tbh in my opinion anyways!

P.s apologies for hijacking your thread op but I guess this info is useful for you too
 
Well I bought my car in 2006, 1 previous owner, 12k miles. I've done 80k in 8 years, and I've got through 0 alternators and 1 new battery (3 years ago). The reason I replaced the old battery was because, at 7 years of age, it was not re-charging quickly enough from the alternator. (to find out, leave the headlights on without the engine running long enough to drain the battery so that it won't start the engine. Start the engine with a booster battery, remove the booster straight away. put a dc current clamp on the alternator lead, and check the charging current. If the current is low, then the battery needs replacing). I still have the old battery, I keep it in the conservatory and charge it now and again, and it will still start the car ok. But for lots of short journeys it would be unreliable ....this is the issue that the OP was facing, and indicates that the battery should be replaced more frequently with a battery to the same OEM spec, not a bigger one.

Obviously a bigger battery can be sourced and will be ok to a low risk, but the risk is that the starter may need replacing sooner than would happen, and the cost of a new starter is much more than the cost of several OEM batteries. The worst case is that the starter ring may be damaged, which then requires a new flywheel.

I've been thinking about the issue of having equipment in the car with a very large load such as Hamid's, and I'll try to sketch a few drawings that would solve it.
 
Freddofrog my car is nigh in 100k miles and in its life with these subs has had 1 alternator and 2 batteries. Not bad tbh!

I look forward to your diagram but I am in the market for a new fast car so trying not to spend too much money on this car.

Although actually my starter motor is on its way out...
 
Hamid92 said:
Although actually my starter motor is on its way out...
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oh dear, not good news there, if you've always been using an OEM spec battery then it can only be coincidence.
 
Yeah always bought from honda mate. Just starting to get lazy especially since its getting cold now and on cold start get that familitary crunch where the motor is being a lazy arse lol
 
I'd say starter motor going, an alternator gone and two batteries in 100K isn't good to be honest Hamid. I'm on 90K and I've replaced 1 battery as far as this stuff is concerned :unsure: .
 
Yeah Steve that's fair but I'm saying that in the same time span as you albeit a little more with all that bass etc I have only replaced the battery and alternator once more than you? Worth it in my opinion
 
Unless you know the previous alternators failed due to an electrical problem then it probably wasn't anything to do with the amp... the alternator will protect its electronics from load conditions and alternator failures are usually mechanical. Two batteries is a bit unlucky, but again I wouldn't blame the amp.

Your amp must be very loud... I'm glad I don't live anywhere near you!
 
It is! Haha! I've seen/heard it in the flesh. It's pretty insane (in a good way ;) ).
 
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