Menu
What's new
By:
Advanced search...

Difficulty Shifting Gears

jayok

jayok

TA Friends
Messages
1,555
Reaction score
86
Location
Ireland
Car
CRV / S2000
I've noticed over the last few days that I'm struggling to get the car into 2nd. Now it does go in but there's a little crunch when it does. It also seems to be unwilling to release out of 1st without a "tug". After a while the car behaves normally as it warms up. The clutch was done 20K miles ago with an OEM and the MTF fluid was changed (for the 3rd time - it likes fresh MTF) time about 1,000 miles ago. I also bled the clutch fluid about 10,000 miles ago as part of the the normal brake bleed service.

Now, I'm not happy with it as it's not right, so I checked the Master Clutch cylinder reservoir for fluid this morning and while it's full it's completed back and "greasy". Now, I too suffer the creaky/clicky clutch issue and I've used some Molokyte grease to help here. However, I think it's finally failed as the grease on top of the brake fluid seems to be from the cylinder (how else would it get here).

So, has anyone else replaced the master cylinder and noticed an improvement?

The are not cheap for a new one at £150, but cheaper than a new gearbox or clutch! I might get one from a breakers and strip it.
 
why put on second hand parts on critical things like a clutch system? seems to defeat the whole issue.
 
toffee_pie said:
why put on second hand parts on critical things like a clutch system? seems to defeat the whole issue.
Click to expand...

Because I'm not sure if it's the issue. Also, I am willing to strip apart a 2nd hand one and make sure the O rings are solid, etc. I can get a breakers one for £30.

If it fixes it, even temporarily, then I know it was a CMC, so I can then justify a new one.
 
Sounds more like a binding pressure plate to be honest, that's exactly how both my wife's and brothers K20 and K24's started to feel before the clutch failed.
 
F6HAD said:
Sounds more like a binding pressure plate to be honest, that's exactly how both my wife's and brothers K20 and K24's started to feel before the clutch failed.
Click to expand...

Clutch failure after 20K?? Probably about 15K of which has been motorway, that's waaayy to short. I'm going with the cheaper option :ph34r: . Why would the plate bind? I ***ume the release fingers fatigue and fail to pull it away from the flywheel?
 
Yep - excessive heat due to abuse causing metal fatigue.. Your diagnosis may also be correct mate, I guess you won't know till you take it out.

Could the release bearing also be goosed?

How does the pedal feel? is it still as light as it was when you had it fitted? I found that the pedal became heavy as the pressure plates wore down.
 
F6HAD said:
Could the release bearing also be goosed?

How does the pedal feel? is it still as light as it was when you had it fitted? I found that the pedal became heavy as the pressure plates wore down.
Click to expand...


The pressure, friction plates and release bearing were all done at the same time - didn't see any reason not to do them. Thing it it's intermittent. That's why I think it's the CMC. I'm getting more squeaking than ever! The squeaking comes from the O ring heating up and expanding causing the fluid loss and creak/click - the black clutch/brake fluid is the give away . I've ordered a replacement CMC at this stage anyway, so I'll strip, lubricate and replace. I'll keep you posted! :)
 
I used to have an issue with my clutch fluid going black on a Motorcycle I had ,it's slave also tended to eat seals like a polar bear ,the warning was also a stiffness and jerkyness throug the lever as the seal flipped and flopped as it reversed itself due to wear . I stopped using dot4, flushed out the system and refilled it with 10w hydraulic mineral ( Citricneon suspension fluid I used as it was green so easily seeable in the res ) this pretty much cured the whole problem ,still went black over time but it took longer and it never ate the seal again .
 
ToothlessDrunk said:
...also tended to eat seals like a polar bear....
Click to expand...

I love that expression - I'm stealing that to use again! :lol:


ToothlessDrunk said:
] stopped using dot4, flushed out the system and refilled it with 10w hydraulic mineral ( Citricneon suspension fluid I used as it was green so easily seeable in the res ) this pretty much cured the whole problem ,still went black over time but it took longer and it never ate the seal again .
Click to expand...
Hmmm... that's a good idea. I need to do some research.
 
I went for it as hydraulic ile has better high temp capabilitys than Dot4 and it's also hydrophobic unlike dot4 that sucks water in .
 
ToothlessDrunk said:
I went for it as hydraulic ile has better high temp capabilitys than Dot4 and it's also hydrophobic unlike dot4 that sucks water in .
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Rob.
 
Ok, so an update. The car was really bad this evening and I had to master the timing of the gear change to make it happen at all. But what I did notice was that going smoothly into 1st was fine each time! Why? because, I only got into there from a stop and wasn't onto the clutch MC for a significant time. 1st to 2nd happens quickly, and this was the notching. It appears that there is/was a problem with the CMC or SMC as if I gave the clutch hydraulics enough time to recover or double-pump it, the gears were fine. :ph34r:

So, I flushed the clutch fluid and a serious amount of gunk fell out - it was all greasy and there was water(?) in there too. Anyhow, fresh brake fluid and volia the car is back to normal. Gear changes are smooth again and the creaking is gone.

I've a replacement CMC en-route from a breakers, so I'll strip that replace the O-rings and clean it up as a standby replacement. I reckon I've only bought time with the flush.
 
Sounds like it's all good , sound like yer hydroscopic DOT4 had drank to much water . I plan on cycling the DOT4 in mine and see if it keeps any issues at bay , every month or 2 suck out the res and fill with fresh . Any issues do come up that requires removals of slave or master will result in the citricneon fluid going in for experimental porpoises . I have delt with many hydro clutches on motobikes but this is the first car I have had that has one . My KTM clutch has citricneon fluid in it right now and has had for the last 4 years .
 
Well, it's back and it's worse than ever... :mad:

Ok, so I've a CMC that's I've stripped and cleaned out, fitted it flushed the fluid, but alas, still there. Only thing I noticed when doing this that it actually became difficult to flush, as if the lines or CSC is giving a problem. I've just ponied up for a new CSC and gonna fit that this evening.

Please, please, pretty please don't be the clutch..... it's a €1000 job that I really don't want to do again.
 
You don't sound convinced....
 
jayok said:
You don't sound convinced....
Click to expand...
No, it was a genuine well-intentioned message! I would have done what you're doing in the exact same order... until Fahad mentioned that it might be the pressure plate I was sure it would be the hydraulics, based on my experiences with other cars.
 
Ah ok - I was waiting for you to say "Good luck with being the CSC... As in my experience the CSC never fails and it's usually the clutch pressure plate". Then I would start bracing for the worst :(

But the to clutch was done 20K mikes and when I bled the system before everything was perfect for a while but started to get progressively worse again. So I am tending towards the hydraulics. A new CMC hasn't fixed it, so next obvious step is the CSC. FWIW I am going to disconnect the CSC first and flush the line to ensure the lines are gunk free. I am suspicious that the greasing of my CMC has made it's way to the CSC.

When I get the old CSC out I'm gonna dismantle to see what was going on.

I'll keep you posted! :)
 
Right so, an update.

I took out the CSC and put in the new one. Not a difficult job, but getting leverage on the flared wrench on the hydraulic lines was a pain in a**. There's a coolant hose that runs just in front of the pipe, that I've developed a dislike for. :ph34r:

Anyhow, with the CSC off, I completely flushed the lines with new fluid and it was flowing freely, I popped on the new CSC and I couldn't get the thing to bleed properly! I'd have pressure then none, etc, it was frustrating. After closer examination of the problem it was that the CSC piston was actually moving slightly any causing erratic pressure in the line during the bleed. To fix this, I placed a piece of wood between the CSC piston and the release lever of the clutch. This forced the piston home (it's sprung loaded) and bleeding was a doddle then.

A complete flush, refurbished CMC, new CSC and we're back to normal with the gears again n :lol: :lol:

So what happened? The CSC wasn't leaking fluid and the CMC was replaced but the problem arose again. When I stripped down the CSC, I found that the rubber cup that holds the pressure when applied would suck in air as the pressure was released. As such the the system was filling up with air with each clutch release, making the problem progressively worse. Hence the 1st bleed "fixed" the issue of the air, but subsequent clutch pressed sucked in air! Ultimately the seal was gone in the CSC.

There's 97K miles on the car now and it's due 100K service in the next two months, so I'll be flushing the MTF again for good measure, but thankfully it wasn't the pressure plate :D

Thanks all for your help.
 
good work jay, but why do you think or what was the reason for what happen to you?
brake fluid not changed in time?
something went wrong...but what and when...that you have such a problem!
 
Cris said:
good work jay, but why do you think or what was the reason this happen?
brake fluid not changed in time?
something went wrong...but what and when...that yu have such a problem!
Click to expand...

I reckon just wear and tear. Comparing the new CSC to the old one the spring (that pushed the piston outwards) in the new CSC was pretty weak, I didn't strip the new CSC to compare the internal seal, but the old CSC plunge seal, seemed very "floppy" and looked uneven - of course this was with the naked eye. With the weaker spring in the CSC, when the fluid pressure was released the spring didn't force the piston back in, but there was probably a little vacuum behind the plunge seal that was balanced by sucking in air.

Ultimately, the seal was letting in air, now if this is a consequence of a worn seal or weak spring, I cannot tell with the naked eye. I suppose it'll take a few days of driving to determine if it's a final fix. Either way the new CSC will help.

The exercise, also confirms that it's not the pressure plate as all is ok now :D :D So if it happens again in a few days, there's still a problem in the hydraulics.
 
so you suggest that the service was done in time...if is the final fix, it means is not from the changed clutch...
i still believe it's from the brake fluid wasn't flushed in time...or you press very very often the clutch pedal...
the idea is how often this could happen to others and how can they prevent this...by changing in time the brake fluid?
is not my case, but just curios!
 
Cris said:
so you suggest that the service was done in time...if is the final fix, it means is not from the changed clutch...
Click to expand...
My car had a full service history before I bought it and the fluid was clutch fluid was flushed before about 10K miles ago. So for the last 10K miles, all was ok and then the problems just started with nothing done to the car. To put it in perspective, the clutch was done at 75K miles and the last flush at 87.5K miles and there's 97K miles now, between 87.5K miles and now there was nothing done to the car and the problem presented itself. So I am just putting it down to wear and tear. I don't believe that there is anything that you can do to prevent this (bar not using the clutch!)

Cris said:
i still believe it's from the brake fluid wasn't flushed in time...or you press very very often the clutch pedal...
Click to expand...
Well while the DOT4 in the clutch hydraulics is hygroscopic and it will absorb water, this is less of an issue than with the braking system. The reason being that water in the brake system can quickly boil when the brakes are used for an extended time due to the heat generate. This leads to gas within the systems that gives soft brakes and is hence dangerous. For the clutch system this heat source doesn't exist therefore the "water" will never boil. But the DOT4 is used as much to lubricate the system and withstand the pressure. As noted by Toothless earlier in the topic, he suggested using mineral oil. So while it's possible the fluid wasn't flushed in time, I am not convinced it was the reason for the failure. Regardless of the fluid flush or not, the spring was weaker and this is a purely mechanical part.

In terms of pressing the clutch pedal often, it's a manual box. I am not sure what constitutes excessive presses with such a system, but I wouldn't see the car used in a particular way that could cause this (like a taxi in a city).

Cris said:
the idea is how often this could happen to others and how can they prevent this...by changing in time the brake fluid?
is not my case, but just curios!
Click to expand...

I am not sure you can. It may be that I am an "unlucky" owner where the CSC failed at 97K and other can get to 200K with no issues. Changing the clutch fluid is no harm anyway and I normally do it and the brakes together, but again, I'm not convinced it would prevent this from occuring.

Anyhow, you're right with your automatic, you only need to worry about flushing the ATF! :)
 
Jon_G said:
But I still reckon you should replace the pressure plate, just in case. :p
Click to expand...

I might just strip the whole lot out first to check first if it needs replacement, rather than just replacing it blindly.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Not a friggin' hope! B) :p :lol:
 
If you had a habit of sitting in traffic and having the clutch pedal depressed all the time, there is a potential for the release bearing to wear/score it's way into the pressure plate, which could then lead there to be not enough pressure being put on the plate an then the gear change could prove difficult.... Just a thought :huh:
 
Nope - the fluid change fixes it. If it was the release bearing it would still exist. Also no noise from the bearing and I don't have that bad habit :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top