Exhaust Manifold replaced at 70k, fume smell again at 132k

[emma3003]

Hi,

I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience of the following...

Our 2004 2.2i-ctdi had the exhaust manifold replaced under warranty at 70k miles (before we bought it).
It now has 132k miles on the clock and we're getting the dreaded stink in the cabin.

I know it's outside of the extended warranty now, but I'm just wondering if Honda might help out in some way considering this is the 2nd time we've had this problem. Has anyone had their replacement manifold crack and got it covered by Honda?

Just on a sidenote, we were servicing the car yesterday, and noticed a lot of crud sitting on the engine block around one of the injectors. Is this a tell-tale sign of a leak? And would that give the same smell as a cracked manifold?
And there was also what looked like a leak from a large pipe just in front of the passenger wheel - any ideas what this could be?
I'll be ringing dealership tomorrow to have these things looked at, but just wanted a heads up on what they might be.

Finally (for now), I have searched the forum, but still not sure what part we need to replace...
A while back, the driver's window started playing up intermittently.
If it was up, you could hear it sometimes still moving a little bit as though it was still trying to go up even more although noone was touching the button.
Other times, it wouldn't go up or down when you pressed the button, or we would be putting the window up and then it would go down as though it was hitting an object and safety mode was kicking in.
Now, it's permanently up and won't do anything when you press the switch.
Where would be a good place to start investigating?

 

[Jon_G]

...we were servicing the car yesterday, and noticed a lot of crud sitting on the engine block around one of the injectors. Is this a tell-tale sign of a leak? And would that give the same smell as a cracked manifold?

I think it is possible that you have a leaking injector seal... it will cause a slightly different smell inside the cabin, but is still often confused with a leaking manifold. It might be a difficult and/or expensive job, as injectors don't always come out without a struggle (and may need replacing due to damage caused during removal). Wipe the crud off and see if it comes back (may just be oil spillage, especially if it's the one near the oil cap).

When the original manifold was replaced, the replacement was almost certainly the later one-piece unit rather than another two-piece part with a weld originally fitted (it is the weld that usually cracks) and I haven't heard of the newer design failing. You should be able to tell from the heatshield mounting bolts which manifold is fitted... e.g. 3 bolts = old two-piece welded manifold, while 2 bolts = newer one piece casing. But any Honda dealer will be able to confirm what remedial warranty work was previously undertaken.

 

[freddofrog]

window problem might be a faulty switch

 

[emma3003]

Thanks for your replies fellas

Jon - I'll have to check which manifold we have. Sorry for my ignorance, but where exactly is the heatshield? Is it along the exhaust, or below the engine?

So has everyone else who has had this repair done under warranty, had it replaced with the new full-cast manifold?
It was our Honda garage that told us it had been repaired under warranty at 70k miles, and the mechanic did say last year that it mght crack again as they had replaced the cracked manifold with the same part ? Seems a bit strange if they have been replacing everyone else's with the new type.
Either way, just wondering if we have a case with Honda seeing as it has already been repaired once.

The dirty injector is the 3rd one from the left, so on the other side to the oil cap. The rest of the engine block looked pretty clean, so i'd say you're right about the leak. Will get it checked out this week.

And thanks Freddofrog - will look for a new switch. Any ideas of cost?

 

[Jon_G]

...Sorry for my ignorance, but where exactly is the heatshield? Is it along the exhaust, or below the engine?

It's above the exhaust manifold, at the rear of the engine near the bulkhead - can be seen from above using a torch.

So has everyone else who has had this repair done under warranty, had it replaced with the new full-cast manifold?
It was our Honda garage that told us it had been repaired under warranty at 70k miles, and the mechanic did say last year that it mght crack again as they had replaced the cracked manifold with the same part? Seems a bit strange if they have been replacing everyone else's with the new type.

Either way, just wondering if we have a case with Honda seeing as it has already been repaired once.

I guess it depends upon the date your manifold was replaced... the improved manifold only become available later on during 7th gen production, so if yours was an early replacement then you could be unlucky and still have the inferior manifold! If it was a Honda mechanic that told you it's got the early manifold, then he's probably correct.

It's a bit lengthy, but have you seen this thread... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/79-exhaust-fumessmell-in-cabin-i-ctdi/

The dirty injector is the 3rd one from the left, so on the other side to the oil cap. The rest of the engine block looked pretty clean, so i'd say you're right about the leak. Will get it checked out this week.

Like I said, give the area a good wipe and see if the marks come back. But maybe there's your problem and your manifold is innocent?

 

[emma3003]

Well, just finished reading the thread that you linked to...

I had started reading it last night, but stopped at about page 6 as i thought i'd got all the information I needed and it was starting to repeat itself.
But lo and behold, there on page 15 the very last post was an exact copy of my situation but no more information about how that guy got on. Argggh, so still none the wiser.

Think i'll just have to have some patience (not my strong point) and wait to see what the dealer has to say.

 

[F6HAD]

cracked manifold has a dinstinctive raspy sound as well as the smell. If you've identified residue around one of the inejctors then that warrants some further investigation.

Easy to check really - just clean it up with some engine degreaser and ensure it's nice and clean. Then check again after a day or two to see if any residue has returned..

 

[freddofrog]

And thanks Freddofrog - will look for a new switch. Any ideas of cost?

You've not experienced the delight of Honda prices

Main switch in drivers door is item 4 here £215 . Try a breakers, or ebay, or maybe it's not that.

window motor is item 2 or 7 here £192

If you want the proper Honda part numbers, remove "_pfk" from the Lings Honda URLs

 

[emma3003]

Oh Freddo, you couldn't be more wrong!

The car has been into Honda for work 3 times in the last 12 months - driveshafts, rear wheel bearing, track rod end and ball joint.
And just got quoted €400 to replace rear discs, shoe set and a plate on back wheel.
Up to now, I think we've been on the wrong end of the 'Honda Happiness', as it only seems to be the Honda man smiling when it comes to settling the bill!

Back to the window... Is there a way to narrow it down to a faulty switch before coughing up for a new one? Can we swap out one of the other switches to see if that works the window, or are they different altogether?

F6had, thanks for the heads up on the manifold noise - will have a listen out for it tomorrow. We cleaned the crud off yesterday, so will check it again tomorrow to see how it's looking after we take it for a good run.

Cheers fellas, this site is such a fountain of knowledge!!

 

[freddofrog]

Honda dealers love replacing those rear wheel bearings and those rear discs. In the UK, VOSA (the departmet that oversees MOTs) are aware that too many garages/dealers replace discs unnecessarily. Obviously I cannot say about the Republic of Ireland

Item 24 is the switch ***embly on the passenger door, and is not interchangeable with item 4 in the drivers door. If you're game for removing the switch yourselves, that's what I would do, deinitely make a note of the connections before pulling them off the switch. Obviously disconnect the battery first.

Here is what I make of what you said

"A while back, the driver's window started playing up intermittently. If it was up, you could hear it sometimes still moving a little bit as though it was still trying to go up even more although noone was touching the button." .....this sounds like the UP switch was not releasing, and the motor was driving until it cut out.

"Other times, it wouldn't go up or down when you pressed the button," .....possibly same thing (UP switch stuck internally)

"or we would be putting the window up and then it would go down as though it was hitting an object and safety mode was kicking in." ..... no idea

"Now, it's permanently up and won't do anything when you press the switch." ..... maybe a fuse has blown

Altrnatively, the window might be out of position on the regulator ***embly.
Otherwise, could be loose or frayed wiring in the door.

 

[Salim]

cracked manifold has a dinstinctive raspy sound

You've been spending too much time in BM 6 pots- fanboy

cracked manifold sound like bag of bolts but before you work that out you'll be unconcious from the fumes

 

[Jon_G]

You've been spending too much time in BM 6 pots- fanboy

cracked manifold sound like bag of bolts but before you work that out you'll be unconcious from the fumes

Got to agree with Sal - my manifold has been blowing for a while now and as it's got worse it is sounding like a 'bag of bolts' when the engine is under load.

And... the MoT is due next week - hope it goes unnoticed (again)!

 

[F6HAD]

Yeah it's kinda hard to describe the sound really, raspy might have been the wrong word.. but it's certainly distinctive and almost sounds like a timing chain but not quite.

 

[emma3003]

Funnily enough, I had thought that the engine seemed a bit rough lately when under load
We checked our mpg today and we've gone from getting about 50mpg to 43mpg this time, so something is definitely amiss.

We have it booked in at Honda for a diagnosis on Friday so will know more then.

If it is the manifold, then i'll be getting on to Honda to see if they'll help out with costs.
Doubt they will, but hey... if you don't ask, you don't get.

Freddo - hubby did take the door card off and had a quick look for any loose wires, but there was nothing obvious that he could see. Think we'll try to swap the switch and see if that sorts it.

 

[Jon_G]

Funnily enough, I had thought that the engine seemed a bit rough lately when under load
We checked our mpg today and we've gone from getting about 50mpg to 43mpg this time, so something is definitely amiss.

This would also be the case if you had a leaking injector seal. Please let us know what Honda say!

 

[emma3003]

Was thinking the same as that Jon about the leaky injector. Just hoping it's either that or the manifold - and not both!!

Will keep you posted guys, and thanks for all the help

 

[emma3003]

I had a bit of time this morning so took the car into Honda for them to have a look at.

The mechanic came back and said that it looks like the timing chain had been changed at some point, but whoever did it messed up the job of putting the injectors back in, so they are leaking quite badly.
From what i could gather - they must have had problems getting the injectors back in, so drilled out the holes (? don't know the correct terminology)... something about bigger bolts and damage to the threads.
So it needs all that sorting out. He said there's no parts needed as the injectors seem to be ok, but it will require quite a bit of labour to fix it all up.
I'm just waiting for them to ring me back with a quote.

He said the manifold is the old style, and he doesn't think it's cracked but will know better once we get the injectors fixed.
Out of interest, I asked what would be the situation if it was cracked. He said that the replacement manifolds only come with a 12mth warranty, so if it does go, then we wouldn't be likely to get any help from Honda. They charge €480 for a new manifold, including fitting, which is about £420 i think. How does that stack up against Honda prices over there?

He then said that our auxiliary belt is the longer one, and we could do with changing it over before it damages the alternator.
About 3 or 4 weeks ago, there was a rattling noise when we started the car up from cold in the mornings, which would go once we set off - It only did it twice and hasn't happened since.
I'm just wondering now does that mean we need to change the alternator bearings or pulley etc, or have we caught it in time if we change the belt ASAP?
Does the fact that we heard that noise at all mean that the damage has been done and we're too late?

And finally (phew!)... it's the motor that has gone in the window.
The garage had sent an Accord off to be scrapped last week, so they were going to ring up the fella and see if he still had a motor from that car for us, rather than buying a new one.

 

[freddofrog]

sounds like a good result ...at half-time anyway. Will be interesting to hear the full-time score

 

[Salim]

It's probably the alternator that you heard, it will probably go eventually requiring a new pulley but if your getting work done you may aswell get the shorter belt fitted and hopefully should last some time.

Was the chain done under warranty if so then the dealer who did it should be responsible for it, as the work was not to standard. You can find out who did it by calling huk/Honda Ireland with your reg/chassis number.

If it wasn't a dealer job then I would consider taking it to a injector specialist and see if they can help out at a more reasonable cost.

Hope it works out for you and keep us updated.

 

[emma3003]

We always seem to take the car in for one thing to be fixed and come out with a list of other stuff that needs doing

They checked their system and the timing chain wasn't done by Honda. Looks like it dropped out of Honda's system when the previous owner bought it. He only had it a short while too and would only have needed to service it once in that time as he did small mileage - bet he'd be sick to know that he would have got that timing chain done under extended warranty if he'd kept in touch with the main dealer! Bet it wasn't a cheap job.

Our Honda garage charges €60 per hour for labour, so we're epecting a quote for about €400 if they take a full day on it. He doesn't think it will take any longer than that and hopefully less.
He did mention that he'd have to take the rocker cover off, so is this something that an injection specialist would do also?
We're out in the sticks here, so might not work out much cheaper having to go to the 'big smoke' to find an injection specialist by the time you factor in a day off work, diesel to get there etc.
At least with the local garage we're only 10min away, and will get a courtesy car while ours is in.

 

[emma3003]

And that's good news about the alternator. Will just sort the belt out for now and see how we get on.