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Facelift Sat-navi on prefacelift ctdi 2004

morpheous87

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Hey,

after I put a civic steering wheel on my accord, I'm going to put (or at least to try) a facelift sat-nav unit (Display unit and navigation unit). I need it mostly because it will have maps for Eastern Europe and the navigation unit will have an ****og video input (for rear view camera). The problem is that I have not the wiring loom. There are a few differences in the harnesses and the wires, but I'm reading the schematics for both (facelift and pre-facelift) cars. I will try to put the hands free telephone module too, so I need a bit help.

Where I can find the B-CAN signal? Some wire where I can get to the hands free?
After my try I will post here some pictures and schematics (in case of success), or ask some question if I got problems...

Cheers!
 

morpheous87

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Ok, no activity here. I think I managed to do it by myself only :)
I need to figure out why I receive the "Meter" Error. It's F-CAN "NG" so I think I need to connec CAN-H and CAN-L to the navigator unit and it would be OK?
The GPS antenna is fine, it's connector was unplugged by the time of picturing the display.
I have some optical problem with the new DVD-ROM drive. I will check with other DVD disks and try mine on a working car's navi. If my reader is faulty I will try to replace the whole optics and mechanism for reading the DVDs.
I'm continuing with car's upgrades :) I will post more picture in the evening.

So this is the result - on Accord 2004:



 

Nasty1984

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Big respect for upgrading your car like this.

Can't help you to be honest :(
 

morpheous87

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Nasty1984 said:
Big respect for upgrading your car like this.

Can't help you to be honest :(
Well, I'm reading the Accord service manual (both 2004 and 2007) as a book :D No worries!
 

morpheous87

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Everything is working almost from the beginning. I had just DVD-ROM lens issues and couldn't read the DVD disk. It can be easily fixed, by replacing the lens module or the whole optical part of the navigator unit. Not so expensive too - 40-45 pounds for replacement unit. F-can is throwing an error because the CAN-H and CAN-L weren't connected. They can be easily found on the OBD connector and just put on the appropriate pins in the navigation unit. Think I went very deep in the navigation part of the car :D
 

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I have only just seen this, I would have said that it won't work, but it seems like you found a way round it
 

morpheous87

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freddofrog said:
I have only just seen this, I would have said that it won't work, but it seems like you found a way round it
Why it wouldn't work, in your opinion of course ?
 

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morpheous87 said:
Why it wouldn't work, in your opinion of course ?
differences in the CANbus (which you seem to have experienced, and found a way round it)
 

morpheous87

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Well CAN bus is only for diagnostic purposes I believe. It only visualize error codes, as you can get them on the instrument cluster too (not 100% sure). So the navigation system + A/C and audio are pretty much independent in the car. They need the IEBus to communicate each other. This protocol is the same in all Honda and Acura cars, at least 2003+, may be earlier too, but can't guarantee. That's why you can upgrade from non-navi to navi with just DVD-ROM navigator unit and Head Unit with touchscreen.

Currently I'm working on a sniffer for the IEBus, and I will be able to software control all buttons from the Head unit and the touchscreen too. This is tried to be done from one guy in US, but due to lack of time he didn't finish it. I could try and continue developing his stuff. So if I have news about this, I will make a thread about it. I will allow us to use a carPC along with the factory stuff. We'll see... :)
 

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morpheous87 said:
Well CAN bus is only for diagnostic purposes I believe. It only visualize error codes, as you can get them on the instrument cluster too (not 100% sure). So the navigation system + A/C and audio are pretty much independent in the car. They need the IEBus to communicate each other. This protocol is the same in all Honda and Acura cars, at least 2003+, may be earlier too, but can't guarantee. That's why you can upgrade from non-navi to navi with just DVD-ROM navigator unit and Head Unit with touchscreen.

Currently I'm working on a sniffer for the IEBus, and I will be able to software control all buttons from the Head unit and the touchscreen too. This is tried to be done from one guy in US, but due to lack of time he didn't finish it. I could try and continue developing his stuff. So if I have news about this, I will make a thread about it. I will allow us to use a carPC along with the factory stuff. We'll see... :)
ouch, no, CANbus is an important part of the car, the later the model of car, the more that CANbus is used by the systems to "talk" to one another. AFAIK you would find it almost impossible to transplant anything from 8th gen to 7th gen (and vice versa), and there are some small differences between 7th gen pre-facelift and 7th gen facelift.

below is a schematic of the CANbus in the 7th gen (click on picture to make it bigger)



In particular, the ECM/PCM (aka engine ECU) turns the compressor-clutch relay on and off (i.e. the engine ECU turns the A/C compressor on and off). The engine ECU gets its instructions to do this from the "gauge control module" over the F-CAN. The "gauge control module" gets the signal from the "relay control module", which is interlinked with the climate control unit.

Notice that the Navigation unit is also on the F-CAN, this gets info from the engine ECU which can be found in the menus.

You're a braver man than me, and as I say, you seem to have found a way round it, but are you sure that the A/C is working ?
 

shab_the_man

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Just seen this thread and have to say i'm very very impressed. This has been something that pretty much everyone has said cannot be done.

I have to say it was a risky task but it has worked for you big time.

I would only ask that maybe you do a writeup to help the other members who want to do this.

Brian they said that it was impossible to put face lift sat nav into a pre face lift but this guy has worked it out, I am a firm believer that most things with a little patience and a lot of tinkering can be done.

Once again morpheous this is by far one or the best mod I have seen on this site
 

freddofrog

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TypeR said:
Brian they said that it was impossible to put face lift sat nav into a pre face lift but this guy has worked it out, I am a firm believer that most things with a little patience and a lot of tinkering can be done.
I don't recall anyone ever saying it was impossible .....yes 8th-gen <--> 7th-gen has been said to be impossible, but not facelift into pre-facelift, just not straightforward and possible CANbus differences
However, he hasn't confirmed that his A/C is working, and if it's a diesel, I doubt if it will

note that I gave him some "likes", am I the only person round here that gives out "likes" for effort and apparent success ?
and am I the only one who got the Spanish Inquisition on details about the difficulties involved ?
 

morpheous87

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I'm glad that there is a discussion in this thread! So let me answer, and give my view about it.

freddofrog said:
ouch, no, CANbus is an important part of the car, the later the model of car, the more that CANbus is used by the systems to "talk" to one another. AFAIK you would find it almost impossible to transplant anything from 8th gen to 7th gen (and vice versa), and there are some small differences between 7th gen pre-facelift and 7th gen facelift.

below is a schematic of the CANbus in the 7th gen (click on picture to make it bigger)



In particular, the ECM/PCM (aka engine ECU) turns the compressor-clutch relay on and off (i.e. the engine ECU turns the A/C compressor on and off). The engine ECU gets its instructions to do this from the "gauge control module" over the F-CAN. The "gauge control module" gets the signal from the "relay control module", which is interlinked with the climate control unit.

Notice that the Navigation unit is also on the F-CAN, this gets info from the engine ECU which can be found in the menus.

You're a braver man than me, and as I say, you seem to have found a way round it, but are you sure that the A/C is working ?

Yup, you are right. I was misled by the Ga-NET protocol, which is used mostly in the multimedia devices, so if you want to hack your navigation unit, you need to sniff on the Ga-NET protocol(which is an IEBus protocol in it's nature). I think that the CAN is pretty much the same in both, pre-facelift and facelift ones. The instrument cluster (gauge control module called in the Workshop manual) is the gateway between the car's ECU and all rest modules in the car. This is my next point for work. I will buy a facelift gauge and try to fit it in. Probably I will fail, but why not to try ? Currently my A/C is working great, with all options and auto/manual control. Everything is fine, but you are right. I had some troubles. First I'm not sure why I had the A/C module troubles, because when I bought the facelift Head unit it was from right-hand Accord, and mine is left-hand one. When I installed the unit, everything started, the A/C was working only in auto mode, the relay was switching well, I could increase/decrease the temperature. But my manual menu (when pushing the A/C button on the navi) wasn't working. Also the head unit on the top (the small segment display with the clock, above the navi screen) wasn't showing the temperature. Then I decided that this upgrade is impossible, and I only can use it partially. Then I decided that the problem is in the A/C control unit inside the Head unit. It was for right-hand car and mine was left-hand. So I took a part both head units. I put the pre-facelift A/C module in the facelift head unit. Put them together and installed them in the car - and banggg! The A/C was working on 100% functionality! Manual mode, head-up display and everything. So, what was the problem? I'm not sure, in my opinion it was the difference in the A/C modules. If it was a CAN bus problem, how the old A/C module would work with the new touchscreen and the new menu? See the pictures.





TypeR said:
Just seen this thread and have to say i'm very very impressed. This has been something that pretty much everyone has said cannot be done.

I have to say it was a risky task but it has worked for you big time.

I would only ask that maybe you do a writeup to help the other members who want to do this.

Brian they said that it was impossible to put face lift sat nav into a pre face lift but this guy has worked it out, I am a firm believer that most things with a little patience and a lot of tinkering can be done.

Once again morpheous this is by far one or the best mod I have seen on this site

Hi, and thx for the nice words!!! I started this modification with the thought, that I will fail. But I said that I should at least try it. If it fail I will resell the facelift modules and refund. Then go to the next inpossible project and so on :D Why I'm not still did the writeup of this project? Because I cannot guarantee that it will work in 100% on every car! I could mislead someone to spent money for nothing, and it will be my fault! So I just share my experience and my results. I think it could work on every car, probably not from the first time, but this thing is so modular, you can take a piece from facelift car and put it in prefacelift- awesome!!! This is the first part of my bid mod project for this car, which includes - facelift gauges (probably fail here :p ), if the gauges mod fail, I will try to make some trip computer for this 2004 year sh*t... And the last part is to hack the Ga-NET multimedia protocol, and make a module to interface the OEM navigation screen with car PC. It's already done, not something new, but it's not opensource project, and the modules are expensive (at least expensive for me). See this thread - http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/12486-2004-i-ctdi-owner-with-carpc/?hl=ga-net

freddofrog said:
I don't recall anyone ever saying it was impossible .....yes 8th-gen <--> 7th-gen has been said to be impossible, but not facelift into pre-facelift, just not straightforward and possible CANbus differences
However, he hasn't confirmed that his A/C is working, and if it's a diesel, I doubt if it will

note that I gave him some "likes", am I the only person round here that gives out "likes" for effort and apparent success ?
and am I the only one who got the Spanish Inquisition on details about the difficulties involved ?
The car is 2.2 i-ctdi, so it's a diesel one! I know the problems with the diesel A/C, but it's with the Chinese aftermarket units. Their target is the US market, so they don't care about diesel models :D
So in conclusion, I would say that if the facelift unit has problems with the A/C, you need the prefacelift module (small PCB connected to the A/C control buttons PCB).
Unfortunately I can't do this mod on another car, to double check. So if anyone wants to try, he is welcome to write to me and I will help with what I can. The success is not 100% sure, but this makes it more desirable :)
 

freddofrog

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morpheous87 said:
I'm glad that there is a discussion in this thread! So let me answer, and give my view about it.
Me too, I like technical discussions that are done in detail LOL

Very well done in swapping over the PCB inside the A/C controllers (which confirmed what I thought). I'm not sure that it would be down to left-hand-drive vs right-hand-drive, it's possibly down to differences in the "messages" sent between the menu in the console and the A/C controller. Obviously the console has to send messages to the A/C controller so that the controller knows what the car-driver wants the A/C to do, and since there are other differences between pre-facelift and facelift, then it is likely that Honda altered (in a non-forwards-or-backwards compatible way) the messages between some systems that are on the CANbus.

If I am correct, then it would be very interesting to know how they changed the messages, and why.

But you really have done an amazing job now. As I said in #8 ...."I would have said that it won't work, but it seems like you found a way round it" ....and that statement goes even more so now.
 

morpheous87

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If someone wants to try this mode, with no guarantee of 100% success, I will be glad to help, with more pictures and step-by-step. With one or two more tries, we can conclude what are the needed requirements to do this thing working on every car.
 

shab_the_man

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If I still had my accord I would for sure try this mod. Its looks very complex but you have made it look easy which i'm sure its not.

Big respect to guys like you and Brian who know there electronics so well
 

morpheous87

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TypeR said:
If I still had my accord I would for sure try this mod. Its looks very complex but you have made it look easy which i'm sure its not.

Big respect to guys like you and Brian who know there electronics so well
It's not so complex! Especially if you got pictures of something already done ;)
 

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Hi Guys!

I've got similar problem with my navigation unit after non navi to navi update. Enroute the navigation is working very slowly.

I checked through navigation system link and I got the METER error message.


Could somebody help for me what does it mean and due to failure working slowly the navi?
 

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One of the CANbus communication protocols does not exist in the pre-face lift, hence you will never get it working, uness you take facelift ECU+wiring, gauge+wiring, which will bring the necessity to basically make full transplant of devices and harness.

I will soon be testing the touchscreen thing, will see if I can make it work, an expensive test, if it does not work I will sell it out together with the DVD-Rom.
 

morpheous87

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Hi, the touchscreen will work only with facelift HVAC unit and facelift unit. If one of them is mismatched, the touchscreen is not working due to different protocols. I'm not sure if the GPS problem is related with the CAN Bus, I'm still receiving DVD reading error time by time and I'm not using the Factory GPS. The Meter error exist on my vehicle. Not sure if it's for missing CAN bus protocol or because the CAN bus is not connected. I could check it soon. As I remember, on the prefacelift harness CAN-H and CAN-L wires are missing. So, if I get them from the OBD connector I could try if the Meter error will be gone.
 

morpheous87

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I didn't try the CAN-H and CAN-L lines but I've changed the DVD drive optics and mechanism. Everything works great now. Reading not only OEM DVDs but also those coming right out of my DVD writer :D It's reading DVD-R and DVD+R also.











And one question, why dritin's language screen looks like very different from mine (actually it looks like on civic 8th navi if I'm not wrong). My navi software version is 2.94, maybe his is newer?
 

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Great work mate.
 

morpheous87

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Any idea about this ?

morpheous87 said:
And one question, why dritin's language screen looks like very different from mine (actually it looks like on civic 8th navi if I'm not wrong). My navi software version is 2.94, maybe his is newer?
 

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Because DVD lector was a Honda Legend, when I bought it I thought it was like the Honda Accord. Now I bought screen and DVD player Honda 2006 and it works OK. I doubt where to connect the antenna TMC.
Regards.
 
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