Faulty timing chain - advice needed!

[Rimas]

Hello all,

Couple of months ago I've purchased my first Honda, an Accord Tourer 2.2 i-CTDI EX ’06 (facelift 55 reg). The car has done just over 93k but has a full main dealer service history.
Straight away there were some issues – wheel alignment needed doing (after losing about 2-3mm of thread from the outside of N/S/R tyre after just 1000miles) and rear d-bushes replacing.
Recently the local main dealer has diagnosed a problem (slight rattle) with the timing chain and told me that it needs replacing...for £3000! However they believed that it may qualify for a free work under extended warranty policy and submitted the request to Honda UK for approval. Later that day I received a call from them informing me that the request was turned down and the initial estimate of £3000 pounds is still payable by customer (i.e. myself).
I have contacted Honda UK shortly and explained the situation; couple of days later I received a call back, and was informed that the timing chain in my car is not covered by the extended warranty (unlike the '04 and '05 models) and it will not be replaced free of charge. However, as a gesture of good will, they have offered to supply some of the most expensive parts free of charge (including 4 injectors).
The local dealer re-estimated the cost of repair and the bill has dropped to £1200; still a lot of money though, for something that you'd expect to last the life of the engine...
To be sure that the problem does exist, I've also had it checked out by another local main dealer, who's further confirmed the problem, and offered to do the work for the same £1200.
I'm thinking of keeping the car for a long time (over 5 years at least), so on the other hand the repair seems to be quite a good investment, considering the free parts supplied by Honda UK and the warranty that they would carry.
However, I would want this work to be done by somebody who knows what they're doing, and I keep seeing the name of Holdcroft Honda (in Stoke) in this forum as a place that most people are confident with.
I had a quick word with a chap in servicing dept at Holdcroft today and he offer a 20% discount on labour charges; is this the norm there or did anyone had some money off parts as well?

I could really use some advice on the best course of action here - where is best place to have this work carried out, is the quoted £1200 a 'good value' to have a chain replaced in a 'facelift' Accord? Also, is this problem real, i.e. would the chain actually snap one day causing major damage, or is it just an annoying rattle?

Your help is really appreciated,

Rimas

 

[Dan Robinson]

hh are affiliated with ud hence the discount. i would have them do the work for peace of mind.

main dealer servicing does not unfortunately mean correct servicing.

it could be incorrect oil grade/levels that caused premature failure. but you will do well to prove it

 

[vile]

To be honest i thought the extended warranty was across the board with pre and facelift.
I would wait to see wait CJ says on this matter as iv asked this question before.
I believe there has been no claims on the facelift but you might be the 1st.

 

[Rimas]

hh are affiliated with ud hence the discount. i would have them do the work for peace of mind.

main dealer servicing does not unfortunately mean correct servicing.

it could be incorrect oil grade/levels that caused premature failure. but you will do well to prove it

Hi,

When last service was done the dealer has used 5W30 oil; I asked my local dealer and was told that they use 5W40.
After reading the posts here I will insist on 0W30 to be used when the chain is replaced...

 

[vile]

Hi,

When last service was done the dealer has used 5W30 oil; I asked my local dealer and was told that they use 5W40.
After reading the posts here I will insist on 0W30 to be used when the chain is replaced...

Wot the hell is this dealer thinking about they no they should use 0w/30 dam cheapskates trying to save a buck.
You could almost make a claim against this dealer as using the wrong grade of oil. This could cause issues with the chain.

 

[Dan Robinson]

unfortunately post facelift cars were not covered due to modifications.

 

[vile]

unfortunately post facelift cars were not covered due to modifications.

Dan check my thread on facelift timing chains in TAF Tech

 

[TheHole]

Interesting Dan.
Did honda uprate the chain on the facelift cars then ?

Also if a facelift car is having chain rattle, this could be an issue in the future for us!

 

[vile]

Guys iv asked CJ on this months ago and he seems to think its across the board.

 

[Dan Robinson]

i am working from memory of previous conversations both online and in person... but happy to be wrong.


oil will be the cause. i bet a round.

 

[vile]

i am working from memory of previous conversations both online and in person... but happy to be wrong.


oil will be the cause. i bet a round.

As i said Dan we need to get CJ to confirm this as 100%.

 

[Dan Robinson]

indeedy....

feel really sore for the OP though

 

[vile]

True but hopefully we can get a result on this as the car has a full Honda service history so that's in his favour.

 

[gedutism]

what I can advice from my experiece Rimas ,call HH or even make a visit.You will get all answers and deals and discounts
HH is best Honda dealers in England...

 

[Dan Robinson]

If seems it is dealer serviced but with 5-30 oil. Not the worst by any means but we have demonstrated before that it needs 0-30 and 5.9 litres. Something even dealers get wrong.

 

[F6HAD]

you are the first facelift owner to come up with this issue

Whilst I agree with you CJ that the revised design of the oil pump chain should go some way to prevent this issue in the facelift cars, this is definitely NOT the first facelift car to have this issue. Unfortunately I can't remember the other couple of examples, but I distinctly recall a few facelift member cars suffering this issue.

Do agree that it's got to be down to servicing regime (or lack of) if a facelift car with the revised part is suffering this issue.

 

[F6HAD]

You'll just have to believe me then Seriously though dude, it's not the first.

 

[Rimas]

well Honda have taken the TSB which does state the wear for the OIL pump chain (only for 04 and 05 car) at face value. The chain on the oil pump is the culprit and is the first to snap before the main timing chain. The oil pump chain on the facelift are diffrent so it doesn't have this problem!!,you are the first facelift owner to come up with this issue,

Mate I would gladly take Honda offer without bating an eyelid , but the most important question we need to address here is how have you managed to cause a rattle in the chain.

1) what oil have you been using and grade
2) can you list all the service mileages
3) has this car been maintained at a fleet garage or a Honda dealer
4) driving patterns motorway or urban run around

any other info which could give an indication why this has happend.

Hi CJ,

Thank you for your advice.

I only bought the car back in March this year, so I haven't changed the oil myself (but I'll come back to it in a moment).
All the servicing to this car was done by Lookers Honda in Derby (there are 6 stamps in the book), here is the breakdown:

1) 12,717k on 05/10/06
2) No mileage or date recorded, only dealer's stamp
3) 38,079k on 07/03/08
4) 54,754k on 02/02/09
5) 66,738k on 16/09/09
6) 83,744k on 24/09/10 (oops, a bit of a gap here...)

Judging by the miniature chips on the windscreen and the bonnet, I would guess that the car has done a lot of motorway miles (it has been company owned).

Now for the best part - the oil. Today I spoke to Lookers Honda in Derby and asked them what oil they have used; it's Shell Helix HX7 5w30 semi-synthetic...
Apparently, they use it in all diesels and ***ured me that it is within Honda's recommended guidelines. I will let you guys be the judges here...

Anyways, I spoke to Tony @ HH earlier today as well and they will be happy to do the work for me; I'll need to book a health-check first and have the timing chain fault confirmed, so that they can request the free parts that were allocated by Honda UK.

I'll keep you guys posted on further developments...

P.S. Can I just say that the more posts and replies I read on this forum, the more impressed I become about the helpfulness and knowledge of everybody here; I'm really glad I've found this place!

Cheers
Rimas

 

[vile]

Im with CJ on this once again we see a Honda accord diesel with poor service history.
This in my mind is not a fault of Honda but negligence by the previous owner or owners.
Have a look at most members here and there services are halved to Honda recommendation.So to go over the service interval by Honda is asking for trouble.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Let's hope they don't ask too many questions bud. Take those parts quick and let HH work their magic.

 

[Paul the Bobby]

Let's hope they don't ask too many questions bud. Take those parts quick and let HH work their magic.

Agree with you Dan!

 

[benw123]

Interesting thread. My facelift 56-plate has covered 98k and has a slightly noisy chain, with the service history more or less okay bar a couple of thousand miles here and there. No idea what oil was used but since I got it, I've run it on Lubetech's 0w30 as directed here.

When looking for my Accord, I must have seen around 12-15 cars and their engines varied greatly. Some were quiet and others noticeably noisy (I'd say mine is average).

In my view, what's surprising here is that with Honda's high reputation for quality and durability, you'd expect that even with oil services a small way out the car would be fine. It's not like Rimas' car had missed any oil changes, and yet his timing chain needs replacing.

I'd be very interested if anyone knows what sort of durability testing Honda conducted with the I-ctdi engine. Yes of course all engines should be serviced regularly, but I'm sure I'd read of one manufacturer who would test an engine to 100k with no servicing at all. Remember, the Accord diesel is a fleet and now family favourite where service schedules aren't always going to be adhered to. This situation may be more common than we think.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Well, as mentioned before, lot of us have halved the interval between oil and filter changes. The iCTDI is not like the Ford and Froggy tractor engines and needs to be treated with a little more love and respect. Considering it is upwards of 10K for a new engine, family or fleet use is irrelevant. Even my Ford TDCI is about to move over to a more generous oil regime than its current once a year treat - largely because of timing chain concerns.

If I haven't done the Honda's oil by 8K I start getting agitated and at 5K I have started reserving weekend time to do the work. Missing the Honda intervals by 4+K is craziness! It is a pity Rimas didn't find us before buying the car, then he would have had that vital knowledge prior to handing over hard earned cash.


So accepting Honda's 12K interval is a balance between marketing needs and engine requirements. To overshoot by a significant number of miles is asking for trouble. Comparing to other manufacturer's is not really pertinent. We have Honda's; and our engines are unique.

 

[Rimas]

Right the oil to use in your car is 0w-30 nothing else.

First service is 217 miles late..
Second service consider its late
Third service is 579 miles late
Fourth service is a Huge 4754 miles late
Fifth service is another Huge 4238 miles late
Sixth service is a MASSIVE 8744 miles late

Bud did you not do your research before buying this car !!! I am surprised this car is working, so it isnt surprising you have this issue. If Honda ask for the car service history you have NO chance to get any GOGW.

I am surprised the dealer didn't intervenor on seeing this pattern of service and urged the customer for a severe service schedule. in all probability they must have but the owner doesn't care!!

I wont have bought this car fella.

Thanks for a quick reply
Well, you're right, I should have paid more attention to the servicing intervals before buying it; what's done is done now, and I'm gonna give the car the TLC it deserves from now on, starting with the new timing chain kit and correct oil.
The two local dealers that were involved in diagnosing the problem did not pick up on the servicing intervals, nor did Honda UK when dealing with my claim, even though all of them have checked the service history.

 

[Dan Robinson]

That's good news for you - bite their arm off dude!

 

[Rimas]

That's good news for you - bite their arm off dude!

Cheers Dan, I will do nothing less

 

[davecmr]

Guys someone post a video of what a rattling timing chain sounds like.

 

[F6HAD]

you'd expect that even with oil services a small way out the car would be fine. It's not like Rimas' car had missed any oil changes, and yet his timing chain needs replacing.

Ben, we're talking about oil changes that are THOUSANDS of miles out, not a small way out. In fact his last oil change was 17k miles after the last one! Bear in mind this is a turbo diesel. OIL is the single most important thing going into the engine. Honda may be world class engineers, but they're not magicians and if you are so ignorant to the service intervals... you shouldn't be surprised when this kind of thing happens.

For what its worth, I really hope Honda help the OP here as he's clearly just made a mistake buying this car.

 

[Rimas]

Ben, we're talking about oil changes that are THOUSANDS of miles out, not a small way out. In fact his last oil change was 17k miles after the last one! Bear in mind this is a turbo diesel. OIL is the single most important thing going into the engine. Honda may be world class engineers, but they're not magicians and if you are so ignorant to the service intervals... you shouldn't be surprised when this kind of thing happens.

For what its worth, I really hope Honda help the OP here as he's clearly just made a mistake buying this car.

Hi Fahad, what I find a BIT annoying in my situation is that before going to buy the car, I phoned my local Honda dealer and asked them to check the history of this particular car and if there are any concerns that I should be aware of, to which they replied that everything seems to be fine. The fact that I didn't check the service book as well as I should have done myself before buying the car is another thing...

 

[benw123]

Ben, we're talking about oil changes that are THOUSANDS of miles out, not a small way out. In fact his last oil change was 17k miles after the last one! Bear in mind this is a turbo diesel. OIL is the single most important thing going into the engine. Honda may be world class engineers, but they're not magicians and if you are so ignorant to the service intervals... you shouldn't be surprised when this kind of thing happens.

For what its worth, I really hope Honda help the OP here as he's clearly just made a mistake buying this car.

Good point. What's really annoying I think is that even some Honda dealers don't understand which oil to use (I.e. using 5w30 or 5w40 when Honda's own guidelines suggest 0w30). So even if you were a fastidious owner getting your car serviced every 10k, if the wrong oil is going in then you're likely to do harm without realising.