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Injector Refitted - Fails to Start

Shadow

Shadow

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Messages
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Location
Wolverhampton
Car
Accord 2.2 i-ctdi
Hello,

Well I did say for now I have only problems not solutions when I joined the forum…


Does anyone have experience of an Accord diesel engine failing to start after re-fitting an injector and what was the cause? I’ve included some more detail and history below.


History:

Although it’s been a great car in all other respects I have had 9 fire / copper washers replaced over the last few years. Originally my friendly Honda dealer replaced all 4 injectors when replacing the timing chain but since then the car has been plagued by injector blow by. Eventually the dealer changes its name, moved and washed its hands of the problem so I’ve had 2 washers replaced by other garages. Regardless of who fitted them they have always failed again from a few hundred miles to a few thousand.


After asking a few questions about how they were fitted I thought it was likely no one took the time to clean / re cut the seat for the injector and went down the ‘If you want it doing properly do it yourself route’.


Prior to now I successfully replaced 1 other washer with no issues but no such luck this time.


Current Problem:

This injector was more difficult to remove but still required only moderate force after soaking overnight. After refitting the injector the car just won’t start, no fuel is getting to the engine. I realise I could have damaged the injector by removing it but am hopeful someone here may have had the same problem and found a solution. As far as know I shouldn’t need any coding / programing after fitting the same injector to it’s original cylinder but that’s just an ***umption.


Here is what I have tried so far:


Checked for DTCs with a basic obd reader – MIL on & found P1042, P1043

Rechecked all relevant connectors / cables / fuses - ok

Cleared DTCs – didn’t reoccur

Common Rail Pressure reads ~22 Bar when cranking the engine – nothing to compare this to and can’t be sure the reading is correct, seems low.

Tried priming fuel system – ok

Checked battery – it is weak and needs replacing soon but still gives a few good starting attempts

Checked sanity – deemed insane for messing with complicated fuel system




Hopefully I’ve missed something obvious but if not I guess my options are:

Have the injector tested properly

Risk a used or reconditioned injector for comparison

Buy a dodgy looking HDS device from fleabay and hope it sheds some light on the problem – lost injector codes?

Call it a day and try to find a good garage / specialist



Thanks for reading, all opinions are welcome before I decide what to do next.
 
Rail pressure needs to achieve 200bar during cranking before the ECU will instruct the injectors to open... this appears to be your problem. Maybe the weak battery is not allowing the starter to crank the engine over fast enough, so the mechanically-driven high pressure pump cannot do a good enough job? Or the injector you've just had out has developed excessive leak-back due to 'handling' issues? (Excessive leak-back causing starting problems is quite common on the i-CTDi)

It would be interesting to see if some sort of 'easy-start' spray would get it running.

Injectors do need coding (using HDS and thre code written on them) but not a critical problem.
 
The battery seems to turn the engine over at a normal rate for 3 - 4 10 second attempts but I've got a similar capacity good battery I can try to be certain. Since it has always started first time every time for the past 6 years I didn't realise how bad the battery was until now.

Unless I damaged the injector while pulling it out of the engine (with a manual pulling kit) I was careful not to mishandle it / capped all openings / no excessive force or cleaning but I've read they often do not survive removal. I'll see if I can perform a leak back test before taking more expensive action or giving up.
 
Well I've cracked it! In more ways than one.

You were right about the leak back test Jon. With 10 seconds of cranking I got a trace of fuel from the other three injectors but the 1st overflowed it's container. I dont have an acceptable figure to reference but I'd say thats not quite right.

I've just removed it again and thought I'd also remove the components under the cap out of interest since it's goosed anyway. There was a faint irregular line running from out all the way from the center to outer via 1 of 2 other holes / fuel ways. Looking under a scope its definetly a crack. I thought it came out relativly easily the first time but maybe I shouldn't have used the injector in that game of darts or for knocking in those 9" nails! I'll take it even easier with the slider next time.

At least my 50% failure rate is no worse the last specialist to do the job and that's infinitely better than Honda who just wanted to fit new injectors each time.

Time to look for a replacement.
 
I don't have a reference for the leak-back rates either, but - as you say - the one causing the problem is usually obvious! Well done for finding the problem.
 
I've ordered a reconditioned injector from Specialist Diesel Injection Services Ltd for £108 (if they accept my damaged injector for exchange). I'll update this thread once I fit it.

Does anyone know of a good garage near the Wolverhampton or Yorkshire area who have HDS or compatible Bosch Programmer? I'm not keen on going to a Dealer after my last experience.

I keep looking at a cheap Chinese looking 'HDS' device on Fleabay but that could end in tears - likely to be a badly made fake, don't know what software if any is supplied with it, not trained to use HDS.
 
Shadow said:
I've ordered a reconditioned injector from Specialist Diesel Injection Services Ltd for £108 (if they accept my damaged injector for exchange). I'll update this thread once I fit it.

Does anyone know of a good garage near the Wolverhampton or Yorkshire area who have HDS or compatible Bosch Programmer? I'm not keen on going to a Dealer after my last experience.

I keep looking at a cheap Chinese looking 'HDS' device on Fleabay but that could end in tears - likely to be a badly made fake, don't know what software if any is supplied with it, not trained to use HDS.
Click to expand...
Speak with Fahad 'F6HAD' as he offers a HDS service. He is normally up and down the country so maybe be able to help
 
Yep i can do drop me a PM when ready
 
Back on the Road at Last.

Delivery of the reconditioned injector was late due to being out of stock but at least It's now fitted (easy since the cleaning / carbon removal was already done). I'll just need to get it coded now.

That leaves 2 injectors I fitted and 2 by Honda. Hopefully my own efforts won't fail but history suggest the clock it ticking for the other 2.
 
Good news just make sure they are coded in.
 
Since I'm not making any trips up to Yorkshire in the near future I had the coding done locally. I was hoping to make a last post saying it was coded and problem solved but it seems fitting the replacement injector has introduced a new problem.

Since it's been a while I'll write a short reminder to save anyone interested from reading the whole thread:

Injector 1 suffered blowby (after a long and miserable history of this) but the car ran without any other issue
I refitted the injector but damaged it due to difficult removal
I fitted a reconditioned injector and got the car back on the road but needed coding

Before the new injector was coded the engine ran ok / no obvious problems but I've not been using it much.

After coding the engine was knocking slightly (Diesel Knock). I don’t know the specifics of how this PCM deals with new injectors but I expected it to adjust its fuel delivery and improve with mileage but it just hasn't, in fact it got worse and has now covered about 50 miles.

I'm not giving up yet but I may have to return the replacement injector for testing and I might buy a used one for comparison. I've also just unpacked a Honda specific diagnostic module and have been given some Correction Quantity figures to check when I get chance.


I really should have traded the car in for that petrol estate I looked at 3 months ago when it was running ok!
 
Hi Andrew, thanks for the update. You must be getting a bit fed up, but - on the other hand - you're getting really good at changing injectors!

I think manual injector calibration (rather than simply inputting the code) might well help (or hopefully even cure) the diesel knock issue. HDS can do this, but I'm not sure what other hardware can.
 
I've tried out the new diagnostic tool. I knew I was spinning the roulette wheel when I bought this piece of kit and it's fairly safe to say it is not the genuine and licenced device the seller claimed but none the less it does what it claims it can. It seems to be a copy of a Honda Interface Module and runs HDS.

The figures the injector supplier is interested in are:

Correction Quantity (mg)

Injector 1 (Replaced) -1.1
Injector 2 0.2
Injector 3 0.1
Injector 4 0.2


The software also includes an injector test (passes all 4) but no obvious way to do a manual calibration.
 
Well you have a tolerance of +/- 5mg but -1.1mg is the reason you are getting knock

Do you have a menu called 'Adjustment' within the diesel system menu? You can code the injector in there.
 
I do have the adjustment menu and the ability to read the current stored codes and write codes. The current stored codes were already correct. I tried reentering the code for the removed injector then the correct code for the injector currently fitted. I got the same result - ran ok for a short time then started knocking. The correction quantities were similar to the values in my last post.
 
New injector is bad in that case.. Or possibly even a problem with the wiring to the injector but most likely the injector itself
 
Problem Solved. I had ordered a used injector a couple of days ago and have just fitted / coded it. I've been out for long, knock free, run!

Hopefully the donor of the used injector isn't on this forum but if so I'm sorry to hear about your engine.

That just leaves the problem of returning the reconditioned injector, the supplier is sure the -1.1 Correction Quantity is ok but they are going to retest it.

Out of interest the Correction Quantities (mg) are now:


Injector 1 (Replaced Again) -0.4
Injector 2 0.2
Injector 3 0.1
Injector 4 0.0


At least after all the hassle I can now read codes / perform diagnostics on all the vehicle's systems. I've got one code for a failed rain sensor. This makes some sense of the fact that the wiper operation has had no useful relation to the amount of rain for the past 6 years, I'd just ***umed it was a bad system. Oh and I'm down to ~15 minutes to replace an injector (without major cleaning).
 
Well done.

Seeing as how you're so good at replacing injectors, I'll come round if I ever need help with changing one!
 
If I can get my success rate up from 50% to 99% I'll set myself up as Andy's Mobile Injector Removal / Break it and Run a
Away Service. At least on another engine I wouldn't have to cringe as I turned the retaining bolt through 90 degrees on my re-tapped thread.
 
Good wprk man.Are you have special tool to remove injector?
 
Yes, this time I invested in an injector puller set (with slide hammed) and seat cutting / cleaning tool. They are only cheap versions from Ebay but the're some of the better cheap ones.

Unlike the first injector, that removed itself from the engine after the retaining bolt sheared, this one decided to weld itself in.
 
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