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Knocking Tappet

FennLane

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I have an 04 Plate I-CDTI Tourer (135k miles) and on the way home last night it developed a serious knock.

It did not take time to develop but appeared instantly and sounds very much like a tappet. There is a single knock which I am sure is half engine speed.

I am guessing that one of the hydraulic lifters has stuck and that there is a large clearance on one of the valves.

I called my local dealer to price up a new hydraulic lifter (£16-ish) and was told it was more likely to be a timing chain!!

I was aware of some chain issues with 04 engines but I can not hear any general rattle and there is no chain noise apparent on the overrun.

They quoted £3000 + VAT to replace the chain and I suggected it would be just as cheap to have the car buried at sea as its value is only about £3k when the engine is healthy.

Has anyone experienced any lifter failures?
 

vile

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have you lost any power
 
A

Attaboy

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Not seen much of it on the forum....have you tried the search function?
 

beefy_634

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ive seen lifter/folower failure after a timing chain has snapped but not before hand. sometimes the oil pump chain (which is separate) can snap and the engine will still run. the oil preasure light isnt on is it? difficult to say what it is without inspecting the car. may be worth you having a honda garage take a look at the problem. perhapse there guess at a timing chain is wrong?
 

RobB

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I think it could be an injector. I believe these can knock when failing.
 

edgeoftime

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not sure if this goes for our engines, but on our boat engines we have had diesel knock, caused by an injector failing, we track the fault by "cracking" the pipe at the injector, in turn, the one that does not effect the tickover is the faulty one. As I say although I have the i-cdt, I have never had occasion to even remove the plastic sheild. Hope you find the fault and that the remedy is not expensive.
 

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I had a hydraulic lifter stick on a Vectra a couple of years ago. It had a blockage (tiny bit of dirt in the oil) so it couldn't raise pressure. It would always knock really loudly on start up (large valve clearance) till it slowly built up pressure, the noise appeared suddenly one morning. Luckily mine was resolved by putting a bottle of additive in the oil which cleared the blockage. Then an oil change to prevent it happening again.

A hydraulic lifter may be £16 but it's the labour cost of removing the cam to get to it so if it is a lifter I'd try the additive 1st as it far cheaper.
 

FennLane

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There is a minor power loss just off idle which I would expect if the valve wasn't opening at correct time but other than that the engine is healthy,

The oil pressure light isn't on so I ***ume that the pump chain is OK and the main timing chain has never rattled.

It isn't a diesel 'knock' as it is far too metallic.

I don't really feel inclined to take it to a Honda dealer. I have had a couple of conversations and they aren't really interested, which is no real shock as the cost of repair is more than the value of the car.

If I can't fix it with an additive I will break it for spares.

I don't think I can be bothered with a car where the dealer tells me that the injectors can never be removed without breaking them and there is nothing they can do for less than £3k.

I had always thought Hondas were reliable and well engineered but I am clearly mistaken as the car has not done extreme milages and has a full service history.
 

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The knock could actually be a DMF on its way out. But at 135k if its been serviced with 0w/30 oil, it should be ok - although an 04 car is a very early ictdi and will have the old timing chain design.. I would get it diagnosed properly and then approach Honda for some help as these cars are covered for 125k and 7 years for this job anyway and if it's been main dealer serviced and not missed any services... they may offer some goodwill. Ask nicely though.
 

shab_the_man

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I think you will need it inspecting at a dealer maybe, without hearing it we can't make a diagnosis.
Never heard of the lifters failing on this site at all but the timing chanin has come up as had the DMF.
Keep us all updated with progress mate, hope you get it sorted
 

FennLane

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The clutch and Dual Mass Flywheel are all OK. The flywheel would knock at engine speed rather than the half speed of a rocker.

I don't think the lifter has failed just stuck.

As a first try I am going to change the oil and use a Liqui-Moly hydraulic tappet cleaner and see if it unsticks.
 

FennLane

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Flushed the engine with a Forte Engine flush and changed the filter and oil to the EXOL 0-W30 Low SAPS full synthetic and added the Liqui Moly Hydraulic Tappet Additive.

No result - it still knocks quite badly.

Removed the injectors - without any problem - didn't need penetrating oil, brake fluid or Coke they came straight out with no real problem and we didn't even use a puller. Surprised and relieved not to have broken them.

I wonder what happens to the 'old' injectors when they are routinely replaced - could they possibly end up being sold to be reconditioned and end up on EBay - or I am just becoming cynical.

The only visible fault is on the cam of No 1 Cylinder Exhaust Valve - there is a significant wear mark on the lobe tip - photo isn't too good but is around 10 thou deep.


I haven't go down to the rocker as yet but this must be showing a similar amount of wear and could well be the problem.

I would ***ume that the lifter has stuck or worn.

I am now in a real pickle as cams are around £500 each and with all the other parts the cost s too high to repair the motor.

I would think the chance of finding a good used cam and rocker will be slim to none but I will try to find one.


I will dig deeper and take out the rocker and lifter and see where that leads.

 

ebod

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I'd have gone for it being a loose 'chuffing' injector as these sould exactly like tappets when gone. The telltale signs would be carbon crud around the injector.
But from the pic above you've investigated further than this already....
 

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I'm no mechanic so apologies if it sounds like I'm talking total rubbish.. but to my mind, your injectors have already been off the car previously hence the reason they came off so easily. Also, the worn cam lobe may be due to the inejctor tip hitting it - this happens on some VAG engines.
 

FennLane

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The knock was very metallic and unmistakable really. ( I am unhapilly old enough to remember all of the dodgy Pinto cams that were fitted to the Mk3 Cortinas.

The bolts securing the injectors were all quite tight and I see no evidence that they have ever been off the car as the paint seal marks were all intact and there is no evidence that anything has been disturbed in the past.

I am sad to say I just can't see how the injector tip can touch the cam lobe. The injector is located in the cylinder head and the cam operates the valve via a rocker. I can't see how the injector can touch the cam - this would be quite difficult. This would also be true of a *** engine.

Some of the *** Diesels are known a 'Pumper Diesels' and in this design each cylinder has its own high pressure fuel pump operated by the same cam that opertates the inlet and exhaust valves. Fuel is delivered to each pump-nozzle by a low-pressure pump serving the same function as the internal vane pump in a distributor-type system. As the engine cylinder approaches the end of the compression stroke, the main pump plunger advances, pressurizing the fuel. A solenoid valve adjacent to each pump-nozzle is normally open and bypasses the fuel. When the solenoid valve is energized, the bypass passage is closed and the fuel is forced to an extremely high pressure and through the injection nozzle. At the end of the required injection period, the solenoid valve de-energizes and any remaining fuel pumped by the plunger bypasses the nozzle. Thus, fuel is injected as long as the solenoid is energized, allowing full control of injection timing and duration. This system has the significant advantage of eliminating the separate high-pressure fuel lines from the pump to the nozzle because it is all built into a single unit, thus giving better control of the injection cycle.

These engines commonly have camshaft wear problems and I had a 150 BHP TDI Golf which ran its cam at about 160K miles but the cam is much more heavily loaded than in the Honda.
 

F6HAD

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Yup that's how VW PD engines work, and yes the 150 ARL engines suffer with 'chocolate cam' syndrome. I've just never heard of cam wear on an ICTDI.. but I seem to be seeing a lot of new problems being reported by members so maybe as they now get a bit older (the cars not the members) then we're seeing other freak problems occuring. I've never heard of ICTDI injectors coming out easily though so still feel convinced they're either not the originals or have been out for some reason. Good luck with the fix mate.
 

Salim

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would not a leak down test of been better before pulling it apart. hard to tell, sure its not a blowing manifold?
 

FennLane

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I only have a leakdown kit suitable for a petrol engine but none of the symptoms indicate the need to carry out this type of test.

There is no loss of compression, smoke or real power loss just a loud metallic knock.

A worn cam/rocker and lifter will still allow the valve to seat at TDC so unless the rings have worn badly there should be no compression loss from this fault so leak down won't help diagnosis.

I am sure it isn't an exhaust manifold blow and the noise is coming from the wrong place. We did have a good check with a stethoscope before we lifted the rocker cover.

The service print out from Honda doesn't show any work that would have needed to take out the injectors so unless it has been done by an independent garage they should be original to the engine but there is no guarantee that this is the case. The two paint marks on the injector caps were intact and undisturbed which sort of indicates they have never been touched. If the marks had been re-done I would exepect to see a witness of the old marks.

I am just in the process of making a cam locking tool so I can lift out the exhaust cam and see what the rocker and lifter are like.
 

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The rocker isn't too healthy - the roller isn't quite round and there is a 'tight' spot when you try to rotate the roller through 360 degrees. There is also some play when it is in this position.

The lifter looks OK but at £15.00 it must be worth changing.

The next problem will be finding a rocker and a lifter as no-one seems to have any stock and the 'factory' has them on back order so I can't get a delivery date for new parts.

I knew I should have bought a Benz. :blush:
 

vile

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I knew I should have bought a Benz. :blush:
[/quote]
:p
 

FennLane

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The rocker is due in on 10th October and the lifter on the 16th October.

I guess the hydraulic tappets will need to be bled before the cams go back in and we run it up.

While it is stripped this far I will replace the timing chain, tensioner and chain guides.

The tensioner is has moved out by about 20mm so the chain is quite worn and it will need changing soon in any case.

The sprockets look in good order so I will leave these alone.

Any ideas about oil consumption when it is back together?
 

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FennLane

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Should have all the parts later today as the lifter has come early and I bought a head complete with cams, rockers and lifters off a 44k mile old engine - it still has the diesel pump fitted.

The crank pulley locking too is due today along with the new chain and tensioner/

I have bought the EXOL 0W30 Low SAPS synthetic oil and will change the coolant at the same time as Iam sure is still on the original.
 

F6HAD

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Chris, please take plenty of pics and do a write up for the members DIY section. Whilst not a common problem (never heard of it myself yet), it will be a great insight into the inner workings of the ictdi with visuals..
 

FennLane

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I didn't take many photo's during dismantling but will take photo's during re-***embly.

None of the parts ordered and promised by yesterday turned up and the guy selling the head couldn't meet up until this evening so I am just a bit frustrated.

Once it runs I am considereing fitting a 'chip' to improve the performance but would like to know the impact on fuel consumption.

In mixed driving I was getting about 40mpg so any ideas on the effect of tuning would be good, both in terms of horsepower and economy. :rolleyes:
 

FennLane

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Collected the spare head last night 44k mile old engine head complete with cams, rockers, lifters and DieselPump £180.00 - not too bad



took off the cam carrier, removed the exhaust cam to replace the one with the damaged lobe.



Cleaned the cam and bled all the lifters by pressing the valve in with a pop rivet an then pumping out all the old oil.

Mke sure they can move full stroke (about 4mm movement) when they go back as if they are fully pumped up and locked you could bend some valves.


The next job was to change the timing chain which involves removing the bottom pulley with a special tool



We set the tools up with some axle stands (new discs next !!) but the breaker bar wasn't long enough as the pulley was FT.



So we resorted to a 2m long tube.



We also needed to take pff the 'fan belt' and you need a long 14mm spanner to 'relax' the tensioner

So we made on up with an old ring spanner.



The tensioner had extended 25mm on the ratchet (photo later) and the chain 136k miles was very poor.

The new chain can be bowed sideways about 30mm over its length but the old chain bowed about 150mm.

I did take a photo but my old digital camera is a bit flakey and it wasn't saved and by the time I found out the new chain was in the engine.

I will re-photograph the old chain later.

Just re-fitted the timing chain cover so more later


 

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Wow.
 

FennLane

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Worn Chain



Worn cam - replaced




Back together and timed

The engine is all back together and running - the d*mned thing is still knocking in exactly the same manner.

I have looked at the option if a used engine from a breakers and they all want about £1500 which is about 50% of the value of the car and far too much to invest.

We changed all the lifters from the ones that came with the used cam along with the rockers and bled them before installation.

I will have one last go to see if there is a blockage to one of the lifters which is preventing it from pressuring and if this dsn't fix it I will break the car and try to recover some of the cash we have spent.
 

FennLane

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One of the lifters - different one to the last time- wasn't pressurised after about 3-4 minutes of running.

Tried to pump it back up when out of the engine but it still compresses about 2mm even using a thumb.

All the other lifters pump up solid when bled in the same manner.

I have replaced this lifter and let the pressure out of all them before start up.

Time to put it back together again !!
 
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