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New Accord Tourer

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Paul D

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Location
Gloucester
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Honda Accord Tourer
Hi All

Finally found a decent looking Accord forum!

I picked up an '04 diesel tourer on Saturday, and have driven around 100 miles so far. I've come from owning a Lean Cupra R, and had to get something a little more practical as we've got our first child due in April!

I've got one concern over the car, although it might just be me not driving it properly having come from a petrol! Looking around their does seem to be a hesitancy problem with these cars though.


I don't really notice it at low speeds, but it feels as though their is a massive flat spot in the engine - like turbo lag but far more pronounced.

Here's an example...

Cruising at 80 in 5th (pre-facelift). Push foot to floor... nothing... nothing... it slowly accelerates (I'm talking around 10 seconds) up to 85, then you can feel the turbo spooling and the car surges forward.

Oddly though, another example:

Cruising at 60 in 5th again. Push foot to floor... gently accelerates, increasing in intensity, through 80, and onwards with no noticeable drop in power through 80-85. At 85 the turbo seems to reach full boost.

It just seems like their is a large flat spot, but if you accelerate into it the engine can cope?

Is this a problem or am I just expecting too much, and need to use the gearbox a little more in this than the Cupra?

If the former, is their an obvious fix, as the various threads all seem to have different solutions.
 
Paul D said:
Here's an example...

Cruising at 80 in 5th (pre-facelift). Push foot to floor... nothing... nothing... it slowly accelerates (I'm talking around 10 seconds) up to 85
Click to expand...

This should not happen with anything with a engine i can say that safely, wait til the diseasal owner chime in to help you out.

Off topic slightly, but SCR is a nice car, shifts well must be a shame to see that go.
 
Welcome to TA Paul.

It's been a couple of years since my Accord was tuned so I can't recall totally how it behaved on the standard map at those RPM's and speeds.

All I will say is that as long as you are confident the car has had been serviced correctly. and crucially the Bosch fuel filter has been replaced recently with a genuine item, and that there are no engine warning lights on... then chances are this is normal.

Perhaps you might want to consider a remap - a very popular modification on this engine to overcome exactly this sort of characteristic. Read around a bit more and you'll get the idea.

Cheers
 
Not had much experience of petrols I am afraid and the recent low rent offerings I have played with recently can not be a comparison. I would say that your are just not used to the way a modern Diesel reacts - you need to use the gears and clutch more intelligently than with a petrol (CJ, you know I was aiming that at you ;) ).

As Fahad mentioned a remap may bring things more in line with expectations as the reprogrammed engine works in a more linear manor. Make a few more posts and more of the forum becomes available and you can see the remap pages. The fuel filter is the biggest cause of performance issues in the diesel engine; of course with the proviso that the driver is used to the way a modern Diesel engine works.

In the meantime, it may be worth having a full service on the car - fuel & oil filter. Some of us run only Shell V Power Diesel although some are more fond of it than others.

If you have a friend or family member that drives a comparable weight/powered Turbo Diesel it may be worth swapping round for a quick spin to see it the cars meet with their respective expectations. There is also a big difference between a Turbo Diesel and a NA Diesel - I have both available for work and they are totally different driving experiences.
 
Paul D said:
Hi All

Finally found a decent looking Accord forum!

I picked up an '04 diesel tourer on Saturday, and have driven around 100 miles so far. I've come from owning a Lean Cupra R, and had to get something a little more practical as we've got our first child due in April!

I've got one concern over the car, although it might just be me not driving it properly having come from a petrol! Looking around their does seem to be a hesitancy problem with these cars though.


I don't really notice it at low speeds, but it feels as though their is a massive flat spot in the engine - like turbo lag but far more pronounced.

Here's an example...

Cruising at 80 in 5th (pre-facelift). Push foot to floor... nothing... nothing... it slowly accelerates (I'm talking around 10 seconds) up to 85, then you can feel the turbo spooling and the car surges forward.

Oddly though, another example:

Cruising at 60 in 5th again. Push foot to floor... gently accelerates, increasing in intensity, through 80, and onwards with no noticeable drop in power through 80-85. At 85 the turbo seems to reach full boost.

It just seems like their is a large flat spot, but if you accelerate into it the engine can cope?

Is this a problem or am I just expecting too much, and need to use the gearbox a little more in this than the Cupra?

If the former, is their an obvious fix, as the various threads all seem to have different solutions.
Click to expand...
Hi and welcome along Paul

I can only surmise as I have a facelift model and the extra 6th gear, but I would imagine the gearing would be similar i.e 5th on the Pre-facelift slightly higher than 5th on mine, but lower than 6th.

The first diesel I drove was a Passat TDI 130bhp, which was great low down and plenty of grunt etc and then after you had used this power band up there was nothing.

The Accord however was very different to drive, it was sort of in-between petrol and diesel, as the power wasn't as forceful as the Passat, but was available for longer.

I noticed that in 5th at say 60 it would pull reasonably fine certainly at 70 it would be pretty responsive. In 6th however it would be more sluggish from 60, it would get there and once again be quite lively after 70, should I take my eye off the speedo for a moment whilst concentrating on over taking to a safe location ;)

The re-map brought the car more to life, more low down power whilst still keeping the power distribution over a wide range for diesel and filled in those parts you felt were lacking when comparing against a more traditional turbo diesel, it certainly dealt with turbo lag, which I felt was low down the rev range around 1.7k to 2k (from memory)

Going back to what you said about accelerating from say 80 I would have thought in 5th gear you would be around the 2.75 to 3k mark and the car should be pulling reasonably firmly. There are a couple of things you can try:

See if the car is like this in any gear around the 3k mark I.e seems to be sluggish, if so more than likely the fuel filter as suggested by others, it needs the genuine Honda filter, after-market products DON'T work.

When you try and accelerate, do the engine revs pick up say 300 rpm and then the power come in and off you go or do the revs slowly increase with the speed?
If the engine revs up 300prm before the power comes in, then it maybe the clutch slipping, generally on the Accord i-ctdi the clutch doesn't go straight away, you tend to notice it slip in the higher gears.
There are a couple of threads concerning this on here and they are worth a read, if you are experiencing this. Also just to point out even though the clutch fails over a period of time, it is best to get it done quickly as this will help avoid having more expensive parts replaced, such as the DMF.

Check back through what service history you have for the car and see when it had the fuel filter changed and whether it was genuine Honda (if not a Honda dealer ***ume after-market has been used) also check what oil has been used, should be 0w-30 as these are the two biggest culprits for causing sluggishness, oh and also supermarket diesel!

Also on reading your post you mention that you put your foot right down to the floor, personally I find it better to ease the accelerator on, you should feel power on demand then.

As for not driving it correctly as your coming from a petrol to a diesel, generally you tend to over rev a diesel when new to them as generally with diesel you change gear much earlier in the rev range than in petrol, unless of course you are going for it ! So not sure whether you would experience sluggishness with your driving style.

One final point, before doing any tests make sure the engine is warmed up, before you take it past 2k
 
Thanks for the quick responses. It's not the clutch as the rev counter is picking in line with speed, and it was serviced before I picked it up on Saturday. I'll check the paperwork to see if it mentions the fuel filter used.

The wife has a diesel civic with the 6 speed, and this doesn't seem to be a problem on hers, although I think the gearing is longer in the Accord.

Looking again this morning, the flat spot seems to extend from about 75-85 in fifth, which is around 2000-2200rpm. The weird thing is the fact it will accelerate fine below this (from 1500rpm to 2000rpm no problems) and only seems to occur if you maintain the speed for a few seconds - accelerate into the 'flat spot' and it works fine. Its like the engine grunt will work below this speed without the turbo, and when the turbo comes on boost its fine, but something is holding it back in this area.

I'll post in the Newbies section to say hi properly and give a little more information on my car history.
 
Could possibly be the Intake Manifold Runner Control issue as per this thread - although I wouldn't go throwing parts at it just yet:

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/1127-slight-missing-or-hesitation-excessive-smoking-etc/
 
I have the same model and have never had an issue as described, I'll test/time an 80-85 5th gear acceleration and report the time back to this thread. To be honest teh only place in mine where I feel it 'lacks' is from 1K to ~ 1.5K and from then it picks up and goes nicely. I'm looking forward to getting her remapped as I believe it smooths even this portion of teh rev range.
 
Just saw you list of cars in the other thread.

I'll shut up now :D
 
LOL, thats only the Hondas - also been through several others, including an Ibiza Cupra, and two Clio sports. Have to confess though, most of the better ones actually belonged to my wife. I had the Delsol for a long time - had it in a magazine etc.

Fahad - I'll try that tonight (will pinch the valve out of my wife's Civic and see if it fixes the problem).

entwisi - thanks, look forward to hearing the difference - like I said, its a massive flat spot, but only when you sit at that speed for a short while then press the peddle down.
 
Paul, just note that the pre and post facelift cars have a different valve...
 
You can always unplug the IMRC solenoid, you'll get a MIL and a bit more smoke, but the car does not go into limp mode so you'll be able to see if the flat spot is affected.

Have you got a code reader, if so have you got anything in the stored codes ?

Was the car serviced at a Honda dealership, if not more than likely an after market filter, although I would be surprised if they even replaced the filter on a pre sale service.
 
Did the test on the way home.a tiny pause when first pressed but never more than 4 seconds with an average of 3.5 from 10 goes.
 
entwisi - Thanks, its definitely not right then!

It hasn't been smoking noticeably.

I've just disconnected the valve (the wife gave me strict instructions to leave her car alone so couldn't pinch hers!!!). Took it for a drive and problem solved. Engine management light came on, but that's to be expected. Dig out those guarantee forms next and see if its covered (luckily the car came with an RAC warranty). If not the garage will have to sort it.

Will it do any lasting damage to leave it off for a few days (maybe a week), or should I re-connect it to be safe?
 
Paul D said:
entwisi - Thanks, its definitely not right then!

It hasn't been smoking noticeably.

I've just disconnected the valve (the wife gave me strict instructions to leave her car alone so couldn't pinch hers!!!). Took it for a drive and problem solved. Engine management light came on, but that's to be expected. Dig out those guarantee forms next and see if its covered (luckily the car came with an RAC warranty). If not the garage will have to sort it.

Will it do any lasting damage to leave it off for a few days (maybe a week), or should I re-connect it to be safe?
Click to expand...

Mainly damage to your fuel bill, but also there tends to be more smoke on acceleration and therefore just got to watch any damage to the CAT, what you may find is when you re-connect it the car will be fine for a little while. See if the garage will replace it, otherwise it is around £120, if it is not covered.
 
OK, well I have plugged it back in anyway, so will wait and see what happens. The loss of power was in the 2000-2500rpm range for information.

Pretty sure the warranty will cover it - if not the garage will as I have only had the car 3 days!

Thanks for the help
 
Cool, at least you know what it is now - and to be fair it's not a very expensive part anyway.

Personally I think it's down poor fuel going through the system, once you replace it switch to V Power Diesel.
 
True. will give the RAC a call at lunch time and get them to confirm it.

Does the fuel make that much difference on these? I always use Shell anyway as their is one near my house, and another near work, but I wasn't going to worry using V-Power on this (used V-power every other tank on the SEAT).
 
You've got to remember that diesel fuel is different to petrol. Diesel is a lubricant as well as a fuel and works in a different way.

Wheras on Petrol, when the fuel is burnt it exits from the exhaust - it also mostly keeps everything clean too (ever used petrol to clean something?)

Diesel is a heavy oil and will leave deposits (every tried cleaning something with diesel?)

VPD is a gas to liquid - doesn't come from the standard distillation process. It's a very pure and light fuel with some special additives. The ICTDI seems to love it, and a lot of us that haven't had engine component failures often put it down to this fuel being used.
 
That makes some sense. Older petrol Honda's were always tuned around high octane fuel due to the better quality petrol in Japan, hence imports had slightly higher power outputs, but some higher tuned vehicles developed problems with lower quality fuel (Subaru's, Evo's, etc). UK models were just detuned slightly to compensate for the lower quality fuel (and US cars even more so).

I wonder if they have done the same thing with the diesels? With a petrol, the lower quality fuel would affect performance, but not engine components and wear.

Diesel on the other hand would not effect performance in the same way, but would lower quality fuel would increase engine wear as you suggest.
 
Oh, one more thing - is their anyway to turn the engine light off? Having disconnected the sensor last night I now have the engine management light on?

Do I need to reset anything, or will it just de-activate after a set time?
 
Paul D said:
Oh, one more thing - is their anyway to turn the engine light off? Having disconnected the sensor last night I now have the engine management light on?

Do I need to reset anything, or will it just de-activate after a set time?
Click to expand...


After about 5 restarts it will reset itself ( ***uming it came on because of disconnecting the IMRC solenoid of course!)
 
Thanks - it had switched itself off when I left work.

Right - spent an hour at Bristol Honda on the way home from work. They re-set the code on the ECU, then took it for a drive before doing the ECU interrogation. After an hours wait, the technician confirmed their is hesitation between 2-2,500rpm. The interrogation is not bringing any codes up. Even though I had explained that unplugging the frequency valve solved it (although causing the code), they decided that they will need to take the car back in for further diagnosis to confirm the problem, and make a repair.

The garage that supplied the car have confirmed they will cover the costs (to be fair the guy is being brilliant about it for a used car dealer), and Honda will contact him tomorrow to get more information on the car and confirm the work they will be doing.

All being well they will take the car in next week for a day or so and leave me with a courtesy car (I tried to request a CRZ 'Mugen', but they weren't buying that one ;) )


Luckily I drive practicallt through the show room on my commute to work so its no great hassle to drop the car in etc.

Isn't it nice when things just work?
:lol:
 
Paul D said:
Thanks - it had switched itself off when I left work.

Right - spent an hour at Bristol Honda on the way home from work. They re-set the code on the ECU, then took it for a drive before doing the ECU interrogation. After an hours wait, the technician confirmed their is hesitation between 2-2,500rpm. The interrogation is not bringing any codes up. Even though I had explained that unplugging the frequency valve solved it (although causing the code), they decided that they will need to take the car back in for further diagnosis to confirm the problem, and make a repair.

The garage that supplied the car have confirmed they will cover the costs (to be fair the guy is being brilliant about it for a used car dealer), and Honda will contact him tomorrow to get more information on the car and confirm the work they will be doing.

All being well they will take the car in next week for a day or so and leave me with a courtesy car (I tried to request a CRZ 'Mugen', but they weren't buying that one :blush: )


Luckily I drive practicallt through the show room on my commute to work so its no great hassle to drop the car in etc.

Isn't it nice when things just work?
:lol:
Click to expand...

Sounds like good news and even better news that you've found a decent second hand dealer.
 
Well, the part was fitted today, and we took it for a motorway run to test it - and the hesitation is still their!!!

Luckily it hasn't cost me anything so I'm going to try bleeding the fuel filter tomorrow, as the priming bulb is soft - does this soften once the engine is run, or should it remain rock hard if bled properly?
 
Paul D said:
Well, the part was fitted today, and we took it for a motorway run to test it - and the hesitation is still their!!!

Luckily it hasn't cost me anything so I'm going to try bleeding the fuel filter tomorrow, as the priming bulb is soft - does this soften once the engine is run, or should it remain rock hard if bled properly?
Click to expand...
It softens once the car has been run.

Is the garage going to run further diagnostics?
 
I got some air out but the problem remains. Will speak to the dealer tomorrow and get the car booked in until it is repaired c/w courtesy car.
 
Paul, it could possibly be an airflow sensor but good call, let the dealer play with it mate. Keep us posted.
 
My brother-in-law took it for a spin last night (very good mechanic), and pointed to a few things it could be. He didn't think it would be fuel related, and felt it was more likely electronic - as these are fly by wire throttle. I mentioned the injectors were replaced, and he wandered if the injectors might needing mapping (wasn't sure if the injectors on these need to be mapped to the individual car???).

Unfortunately he's not a Honda mechanic and hasn't done much work on these engines, as he's normally excellent at diagnostics. He said Honda need to do a parameter check whilst driving, rather than a code check at stationary - he would but his scanner isn't a Honda one.

Anyway, once the garage figure it out and repair it I'll post the fault as their is at least one other person on here with exactly the same symptoms.
 
OK, I've still not fixed the issue but this may help us narrow it down.

I again today tried disconnecting the frequency solenoid valve (the new one). took it for a longish run including some motorway mileage - and it was absolutely fine, no problem whatsoever!

Re-connect it, and low and behold, the problem returns. As this is a brand new valve, it suggests its something else that's faulty, but is interrelated to this valve!

The garage had booked it in for Wednesday and were intending to strip the turbo off and send this for flow testing, but given this information, I'm not sure its worth it. The dealers also started hinting that if it can't be rectified by the garage easily (i.e. cheaply), he will return my old car, and the cash I had paid, minus the cost of the new tyres and MOT on my old car!

Obviously I don't want to go down this route - not least because they've now decided that my old car needs a new diff (gearbox started whining after they had it a few days).

Obviously doing this and flogging the accord at auction works out best for them, but leaves me worse than where I left off, so I'm not keen to do this.

Anyone have any ideas what else it could be?

Oh - first tank of fuel, averaged at 36mpg, but obviously the foot to floor action trying to get the thing to accelerate wouldn't exactly be helping this!
 
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