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Noisey rattle/rubbing and oil light coming on.

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paul66beetle

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East Sussex
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Honda Accord
Coming back from a drive today I experienced the oil light coming on. Checking oil levels and they were fine.

There has been a noise coming from the auxiliary belt area for a while now, but I ***umed it was because of the old tensioner. They have revised the tensioner route recently and simplified the route the auxiliary belt takes (removing a tensioner and supplying a shorter belt). This was going to be done.

However upon doing some research on this forum it would appear that the fault may be with the chains and this might be affirmed by the lack of oil pressure now. This seems like a very expensive repair and on an 04 plate car borderline an uneconomical repair. I have read people getting this done under extended warranty but still costing in excess of £1000.

I will read the codes but no doubt they wont be very helpful and just confirm the oil issue.

Any suggestions.
 
So is the engine still running?

It does sound like you may have lost the oil pump drive (chain down from the crankshaft sprocket)... no easy way to check this, as inspecting the chain requires the sump to be removed (which is an absolute pig!). Replacement of this chain also requires removal of the cam chain, which is also a major job, requiring the injectors to be removed (which can itself be a major job).

Overall, chains/tensioners replacement is a massively labour-intensive job, so usually at least £1100 total (possibly more if the injectors break during removal). Unfortunately you are outside the 7 year / 125k mile extended warranty.

It's hard to imagine what else might cause this issue you have, but maybe a knowledgable garage might have a different theory?

Sorryi
 
Jon_G said:
So is the engine still running?

It does sound like you may have lost the oil pump drive (chain down from the crankshaft sprocket)... no easy way to check this, as inspecting the chain requires the sump to be removed (which is an absolute pig!). Replacement of this chain also requires removal of the cam chain, which is also a major job, requiring the injectors to be removed (which can itself be a major job).

Overall, chains/tensioners replacement is a massively labour-intensive job, so usually at least £1100 total (possibly more if the injectors break during removal). Unfortunately you are outside the 7 year / 125k mile extended warranty.

It's hard to imagine what else might cause this issue you have, but maybe a knowledgable garage might have a different theory?

Sorryi
Click to expand...
Yes,

Pretty sure that is the case. I think you have confirmed my thoughts. It just about limped home, as was almost there. I am 99% sure that I have lost the oil pump drive. Only explanation I can logically come to. Explains the noises and pressure light.

I've gone out and read the codes and all clear. Oil light still on and no change. So sadly it would appear to be ££££.
 
If it is the oil pump chain, then the engine may have already suffered some damage from the loss of oil pressure.

I was reading chain replacement threads last night (I'm currently part-way through replacing my own cam and oil pump chains) and I found one from someone in exactly the same situation as you... he spent £1200 on having the chains replaced, only to have an engine bearing fail soon afterwards. Use the TA search facility (select 'forums') to search on '£1200' and then scroll through the list to find the thread 'advice on oil pressure wanted' (I'd post a link, but there are problems with my account).
 
It wasn't driven far after fault occurred. Hopefully no damage done, but like you said can't be sure.

I cannot find the other thread sadly. Would be interested to read it.

Are you doing a how to thread as you go with the Cam Chain replacement? It does sound like a horrific job? Guessing its an engine out job.
 
Fingers crossed then.

There are quite a few chain threads, odd you can't find them. Did a search (with 'forums' selected) give no results? I found loads last night. I am unable to create a DIY as I can't paste anything including pictures, which would make a rubbish DIY. I may be able to PM pictures to Fahad/f6had (the TA boss) who can then create a new thread, or I may write it up elsewhere and manually write a link in a TA post? I have taken quite a few pictures so far.

I have posted quite a bit on the forum about replacing the chains and the problems I've encountered, but no dedicated DIY thread... I'm following the official Honda service manual and would suggest not doing this job without access to one! Both chains are Febi and came from eBay for £80, but the pump chain tensioner is only available from Honda and is around £150 (unlike the cam chain tensioner, it can't be easily replaced at a later date). I also bought a set of replacement copper injector seals from Honda for £16. So I'm up to around £250 spent so far, but may still need to buy chain guides?

I haven't removed the engine, but arguably it might have been a lot easier... I don't know? There's a lot of bolts in practically inaccessible places and the engine has to be suspended to allow the chain cover and sump to be removed... just before stopping for lunch today I managed to get the sump off (20 bolts), but that involved jacking the engine as high as the driveshaft would allow, then removing several bolts from the engine subframe and levering it down while wriggling the sump through the gap. I'm just working out how to improvise the special Snap-On PPC110LA punch used to lock the balancer shafts while taking off the pump chain (I don't yet understand why this is actually necessary). Maybe a long piece of 8mm (5/16") bar?

I've been having to do this all in very slow motion, whenever I have a few hours spare here and there, as I'm quite busy on other important things at the moment. I wasted a lot of time getting off the crankshaft pulley, ordering a dedicated engine locking tool and an impact wrench which didn't get the job done (the impact wrench burnt out!). I eventually got it undone by wedging a socket on a breaker bar between the garage floor and the offending bolt and operating the starter motor (I broke several T-bars and extensions on the way, but it's very rare to have these problems). On the plus side, all injectors came out easily and without damage. So far I haven't needed to use any special tools (yesterday I discovered the tensioners can be locked using a short M3 screw rather than a special locking pin) it's just essential to have an extensive set of regular tools AND A HONDA MANUAL (I can't stress that too much... they are accessible free online if you search carefully, but I'm lucky to have my own on DVD).
 
For a Honda manual on this engine, a Civic one appears to be available at www.arlequinlover.free.fr/ which near enough covers the Accord version of this engine.

EDIT - sorry, that link doesn't work, but the full link is really long and I can't reliably copy it from memory. Use google to search for something like 'civic arlequinlover' to find it?
 
Great advice cheers. I am still sitting on the fence as to whether this is going to be a cost effective repair or whether I am best selling the car as spares or repair. Book value of the car versus the repair costs.

From what you have said its probably not a job for the weekend warrior. I have the tools and knowledge having worked on cars quite regularly but lacking in the space and equipt garage. I may have to enlist my local mechanic.

Thats very expensive for a tensioner! Also depends on luck as to whether the injectors come out ok. Could end up being costly.

Funnily enough I saw a few listings on Ebay for 'spare or repair' where they have had this exact problem. I'd be gutted if I spent money and found the lack of oil pressure did do damage. So at the moment I'm a little torn, the keen mechanic part of me says do it.

I'd be very interested to see how you get on and the final bill. Seen the full chain kits on Ebay for £629.00, which with labour added on and the risk of injectors would mean $$$. I think like you said it can be done cheaper, but I'd like to rid of the inherant fault which would mean replacing the old style tensioners with the newer revised ones. Apparently this can be done but probably at great expense again.
 
Diesel injectors usually come out without too much trouble UNLESS they've been leaking... then the carbonisation can make it a nightmare to release them.

I've actually put in a couple of hours this afternoon and removed the oil pump chain and tensioner. They don't look terrible, but the chain is maybe 2 or 3mm longer than the new one and feels slightly 'odd' when I pull it over my finger, the original ratcheting tensioner (2004/5 models only) looks fine... the ratcheting part looks reasonably unworn, but - as said - I have a new 'floating type' replacement ready to put in. I don't think it would have failed soon if I'd left it, to be honest, but the rubbing/chafing noise was starting to put me off driving it!

I think the only extra thing I may still have to buy will be a replacement tensioner arm for the cam chain, as the old one has some deep pitted grooves in it, which look pretty bad (no rubbing on the central part of the chain, just the edges). Oil pump tensioner arm looks fine, barely any wear can be felt even after 160k miles. All chain sprockets look unworn (no ***ymetric wear or 'hooking').

I did have to buy some Loctite 5920 sealant for the reassembly (no sump or chain cover gasket on these engines!), but I now confidently expect to do the job for less than £300 all-in (I'm not counting the oil and filter as it was due anyway).
 
here is the link to the thread "Advice on oil pressure wanted" from Oct 2012

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11955-advice-on-oil-pressure-wanted/



btw Jon, I still use Windows XP, which will only run IE version 8. IE version 8 plays up a lot on this forum, and elsewhere.
But Google Chrome is fabulous for XP.
If you're using an old Mac or an old Windows, fgs get Google Chrome !!!

http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en_uk/chrome/browser/index.html

if you still have problems after that, then your platform is possibly running as a "zombie" (operating system processes mutated), which an anti-virus will not find !!

[a laptop of one of my sons had a boot-sector virus, which I managed to get rid of. But then both browsers, IE and Chrome, seemed to spawn multiple hidden versions of their processes, and sometimes did not "behave" properly when browsing. I watched the up/down load on the network when all browser processes were killed, and saw some regular intermittent patterns of load. I backed up the data, reinstalled the operating system and data, and everything was back to normal. His laptop had the latest version of AVG free, and it never detected anything. Neither did the full version of AVG (7 day trial), nor Windows malicious software removal tool, nor several other things. Be careful out there.]
 
Cheers Brian, I'm using Win 7/IE11/AVG Free on this laptop... my older XP laptop works fine on TA (but is so basic and slow it's painful). Perhaps I do have an unidentified problem on this machine?

Thanks for finding the link.
 
Thanks for the link guys.

Not great reading on that thread, all doom & gloom. So its a bit a gamble for me as the light did come on, as its hard to guess 'if' any damage was done after it broke. I feel quite confident it was only limped down one road luckily but how much does it need for damage to be done. Hard to say.

If I could do the job for £300 or under I think I'd be tempted with the repair.
 
paul66beetle said:
Think I found the workshop manual, seems a bit steep for a CD which is probably copied :/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Accord-Tourer-03-08ym-Interactive-Workshop-Manual-DVD-Petrol-Diesel-/221293888126?pt=UK_CarParts_Vehicles_Manuals_Litterature_ET&hash=item338624c27e
Click to expand...
Yeah £25 is a lot, but could be good value if you want to setup your own business "For a Honda Accord & Tourer 03 to 08 YM Petrol & Diesel. DVD Is in English, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese" - maybe the steering column changes sides according to the language you choose LOL

I got one ages ago on ebay for £15 for Tourer Petrol (the chap was selling several versions according to year/body/engine and I sent him a message and he told me which one to choose - that way I was covered if he sent the wrong one, but he sent the correct one - but as I say it was aaaages ago)



Jon_G said:
Cheers Brian, I'm using Win 7/IE11/AVG Free on this laptop... my older XP laptop works fine on TA (but is so basic and slow it's painful). Perhaps I do have an unidentified problem on this machine?

Thanks for finding the link.
Click to expand...

might also be due to a hardware issue, another son had a Packard Bell PC with Windows 7, and it starting running slow just over a year later (out of warranty), I didn't have long to look at it, but I think it had an issue on a memory card. From what I could tell, Wndows 7 does some weird things in memory anyway.
Also, on a different desktop with an AMD processor I saw Windows 7 occasionally struggle to run Youtube clips properly on both IE 11 and Chrome (the clips would sometimes flicker or stall), probably a Java or Adobe Flash issue in Windows 7 on AMD, again depending on where it happened to be loaded in memory.

I have noticed that the new "skin" on this forum does require decent Java and Flash.
 
Paul... why not fork out on a manual, then take the car apart and see what's actually broken and what bits you need? The Febi chains are very cheap and maybe (like mine) your existing tensioner is in a reusable condition? And you definitely don't need any special tools... all referred to can be quickly improvised using bits you'd normally have laying about. But it will take a lot of time and effort undoing all the fiddly little bolts you can hardly get a spanner on and I'd be worried about any engine damage caused by the lack of oil pressure (maybe you should drain the sump and carefully check the used oil and filter cartridge to see if you can find any nasty-looking bits?

You don't even need an engine hoist, as it just holds the engine statically while you remove the engine mounts... you could simply rope the engine to your garage ceiling.
 
bit puzzled why the engine mounts need removing ?

also, garage roof, depends on the joists, what if the garage is not part of the house; if it has a flat roof, then most flat roofs are made using thick purlins only strong enough to walk on; if it has a pitched roof (like my garage) then they're just tie-beams for the trusses
 
@Brian - actually, the passenger side mount doesn't have to come off. But the drivers side mount attaches to the chain cover and the lower/rear mount attaches to the sump, so both these have to be removed. The a/c compressor mounting also fits onto the sump, so must also be removed (which was another pig of a job!).

Fair point about the roof, but it was just an example that would have worked fine in the garage I'm using. I did also consider that you could pile up concrete blocks each side of the car and run a beam between them across the engine... sounds like an obstacle course but that's pretty much what I've got underneath the car now with the Clarke 1 tonne hoist I've borrowed, as the frame extends under the engine and beyond.
 
@Cliff - I thought about possibly trying to return the new one, but decided to use it anyway. As it looks absolutely fine, then maybe I could sell the old one? They are very expensive!

I would have preferred to have discovered chains with links barely held together plus tensioners with badly worn ratchets/pawls, but actually it all looks serviceable (although the doubled-up cam chain is around 8mm longer than the new one and the pump chain around 2mm longer). The Honda e-manual gives a wear indication for the pump chain (but not the cam chain) which involves measuring how far the tensioner piston has extended from the body; I measured this to be 8mm, which is the quoted service limit. I think the noise from my chains must have been the cam chain, which is apparently unusual.
 
Jon_G said:
@Brian - actually, the passenger side mount doesn't have to come off. But the drivers side mount attaches to the chain cover and the lower/rear mount attaches to the sump, so both these have to be removed. The a/c compressor mounting also fits onto the sump, so must also be removed (which was another pig of a job!).

Fair point about the roof, but it was just an example that would have worked fine in the garage I'm using. I did also consider that you could pile up concrete blocks each side of the car and run a beam between them across the engine... sounds like an obstacle course but that's pretty much what I've got underneath the car now with the Clarke 1 tonne hoist I've borrowed, as the frame extends under the engine and beyond.
Click to expand...
Crikey it sounds a maaassive job, not the sort of thing I would want to do on a 10-year-old modern car, personally I'd rather keep driving a car with a heavy engine like that worth less than £2k until it died and then scrap it. If you also look closely at the chassis of these 10-year-old 7th gens, well, best not to look.

However, my 1952 Daimler is much more rewarding to work on (he says, not having touched it for nearly 10 years). Chassis is made of girders from the Clifton Suspension Bridge, with a big heavy cast iron block and head sitting on it (and a steel/aluminium/wooden body). I took the whole engine and gearbox out of it 30 years ago in my dad's double-garage, which had a flat roof. I suspended a scaffolding pole under 4 of the purlins of the roof, and they took the weight of the straight-6 cast-iron block + head + gearbox !!!!!

These days it's probably easier to hire an engine lift for the day, and I was also looking at them on ebay a few months ago (because I might take the engine out of the Daimler again). I'm sure I saw a 1-ton lift for under £100, a 2-ton lift here for £133 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171068816813
 
@Brian - Yes, it is not something to undertake lightly and - in my case - I might have got away with simply leaving it?

But Paul is obviously in a different position and has to make the tough decision about either carrying out a DIY repair or maybe selling for spares. Unless his car is otherwise in absolutely top-notch condition it's real market value (not over-inflated dealer price) will be below the cost of even having a cheap garage fully repair it, and Brian's point about corrosion is perfectly valid... I am disappointed about how rough it looks underneath once you get right under (and I've noticed the bonnet underlip is crumbling in places). Sadly, these pre-facelift 7th gens are truly now well in the 'banger' vehicle category.
 
Jon_G said:
@Brian - Yes, it is not something to undertake lightly and - in my case - I might have got away with simply leaving it?

But Paul is obviously in a different position and has to make the tough decision about either carrying out a DIY repair or maybe selling for spares. Unless his car is otherwise in absolutely top-notch condition it's real market value (not over-inflated dealer price) will be below the cost of even having a cheap garage fully repair it, and Brian's point about corrosion is perfectly valid... I am disappointed about how rough it looks underneath once you get right under (and I've noticed the bonnet underlip is crumbling in places). Sadly, these pre-facelift 7th gens are truly now well in the 'banger' vehicle category.
Click to expand...

Jon_G is right, I am in a different position. Mine has kicked up the oil pressure light. I sadly dont have the facilities or space, my 1967 GP is taking up space in the garage and cant be easily moved out of the way. So at thge moment its sitting on the road.

My red paintwork has faded quite badly, the car isn't a mint collectors item. Its a ex sales rep car with 110,000 miles on the clock. OK thats not exactly a high miler but book value price definately puts in the 2k bracket for an 04 plate. Based on this anything over 1k repair costs makes it an uneconomical repair.

I could attempt the repair myself, but finding the time and the space to do it makes it difficult.

As my light has come on, something has definately broken. I am ***uming its the oil chain with the ***ociated noise.
 
^ difficult situation, this is the problem with having an older and "preferred" car enjoying life in a garage. I'm in the same situation if anything serious happened to the engine in my Accord :ph34r:
 
@Brian - Even a diesel-fan like me would admit there's much less risk of that happening with your nice reliable Honda petrol engine, but your point is taken.

Re-***embling (at last!) during the week, I found the M6/10mm AF bolts holding the oil chain tensioner were stretching while being torqued-up (at only 8.7 lb.ft.) so I've ordered a set of replacements along with a replacement cam chain tensioner arm (as it was excessively grooved and pitted)... so I'm now waiting for parts to come from Belgium, as Honda Swindon were out of stock on a bolt. So that's another £50 gone - taking me up to around £300 total - and (partly thanks to the Bank Holiday) practically another weeks delay. I'm getting fed up of using the MR2 and really missing the usefulness and comfort of the Tourer. Gareth at HH was really helpful though and our forum discount with them has really helped to minimise my costs.

Sorry to say this Paul, but while it isn't a technically complex repair task I'm finding it to be a fiddly nuisance of a job with a lot of delays. If you could apply yourself to it without interruption and have all the necessary parts available upfront then I reckon you could do it in 2, maybe solid 3 days. But how can you be sure what bits you need as a minimum?

Because of the previous noise and lack of oil pressure, I'd also ***ume it's the oil pump drive chain, but might be, say, the key holding the oil pump drive sprocket (it's very small), but it's the same difference really. What do you think you'll do now?
 
Well I stuck it on the dreaded Ebay for spares or repair to see if it had any bites. It didn't, which is what I expected.

I have a feeling I may end up doing it. Though still sitting on the fence a little bit and reading this thread. Interesting to see how someone else is doing with it. Have found out that I can get the chains from my local motor factor. Thats a start...

Only one way to find out and that is to strip it. Need to find dry space to do it in though ideally. This doesn't sound like a job for the roadside.
 
Jon_G said:
Sorry to say this Paul, but while it isn't a technically complex repair task I'm finding it to be a fiddly nuisance of a job with a lot of delays. If you could apply yourself to it without interruption and have all the necessary parts available upfront then I reckon you could do it in 2, maybe solid 3 days.
Click to expand...
Thats what I am not looking forward to.

Can anyone send me a copy of the manual?
 
Chains only cost me £80 (made by Febi and bought from eBay)... it's the tensioners that are apparently gold plated! Don't forget I have an apparently serviceable secondhand oil pump chain tensioner.

I cannot let you have a copy of my manual, as it was given to me on the understanding that I would not make further copies that could lead to the original (motor trade) owner getting into trouble. This link is a Civic manual (pretty much identical to my manual), some of the underbonnet dismantling details will be slightly different, but the engine is the same (select FN3 for the model code)... www.fn2workshop.com/workshop/HONDAESM.HTML , select 'shop manual' and then type the word 'chain' to search for the sections you need. You will not need any special tools, all the ones mentioned can be improvised with things you have laying around.
 
For info... you'll need some liquid gasket/sealant when refitting the sump and chain case (plus a couple of dabs on the cylinder head cover). Having refitted all these things over the weekend, I estimate that I've only used around a third of an 80g tube of Loctite 5920.

So don't go buying 3 tubes of the stuff like I did!
 
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