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Snapped driveshaft

Cliffordski said:
Stay neutral Steve

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_pH_level_of_common_salt
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Cliffordski said:
ph7 but never mined
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crikey, it looks like Eric has hijacked Cliff's account

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just as there's a difference between high diving and Cliff diving, there is more in the real world than table-salt in distilled-water in a school chemistry lesson.

A salt is an ionic compound that results from the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base. In sea-water (said to be "salty") there are multiple ions, the six major ions are sodium ion (Na+), chloride (Cl-), sulfate (SO42-), magnesium ion (Mg2+), calcium ion (Ca2+), and potassium ion (K+). The pH of sea-water is actually alkaline (pH ~8) mainly due to continual reaction with O2 and CO2 (driving it in the acidic direction, otherwise its pH would be higher) http://oceanplasma.org/documents/chemistry.html

There are many types of salt (not just NaCl), and when certain soluble salts are dissolved in water the resulting solution may not be neutral, depending on the composition of the salt (the ions which it is made up of). The solution can be either acidic or basic (alkaline).
http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/howtosolveit/Equilibrium/Salt_Solutions.htm

Thus Brine can range from acidic to alkaline, and in some tinned foods it is deliberately acidic
http://www.horiba.com/fileadmin/uploads/Scientific/water_quality/Documents/Application_Notes/HIS/04__-_pH_of_Brine_For_Canned_Food_Testing__Hi-Res_.pdf


Hence "salty" can be an acronym for alkali, or for sour (acidic)

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Paul S said:
Ive given both mine a layer of good quality grease, its been a few weeks now and some big puddles n heavy rain, its still on there nice, repelling water, cant hurt can it?
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Paul S said:
Oh ffs thats enough! What about lubing your shafts up? Thats more important
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I've got to be honest Paul, but this stuff about salt being the cause (from "gritting" or "sea air") is a bit like the Druids believing that crops failed because they sacrificed the wrong people last time round (someone got the virgins)

I've already implied one of the potential issues earlier, I've also calculated the shaft torques in this thread --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/21559-7th-gen-24-driveshaft-poll/ and I have implied the root cause in this thread --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/21543-another-driveshaft-snapped/

In my opinion (and being a Chartered Engineer i hope my opinion is worth something) the root cause is more due to lack of maintenance in the splines or in the CV joints (having said that, I haven't seen a service interval on the splines of these shafts). Basically, the shafts should be able to extend and retract on the splines all the time, millisecond by millisecond. If they cannot then the shaft will experience small compression/tension modes on each rotation, plus a bending mode, which will then cause a crack in the outer layer. The rotational torque will then start to open the crack until, eventually, the inner section will just rip apart in the rotational mode.

what I'm talking about are the upper and lower orange modes below

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plus modes in the 1st and 2nd and 4th below

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then ultimately the torsional failure (middle orange and 3rd mode)

it will take a hell of a lot of rust to cause a crack in the outer layer that would open up, shafts crack due to fatigue caused by vibrational modes that should not be happening, once they crack, the rotational failure will occur

So any vibration that seems to be there, no matter how slight, should be investigated, by changing wheels etc, and by checking how the vibration varies in each gear and by use of the right foot.

Why the 2.4 particularly the RHS ?

I've had another theory for several years, that I have never mentioned. The oil filter on the K24 (and on the K20) is at the back of the block, and when you remove the filter, if you don't have a rag ready, the engine-oil runs down the block onto the end of the inter-shaft. I have never let any engine-oil get that far (because I could see the potential issue before I unscrewed the oil filter first time).

Used engine-oil is not known for being a good thing to get anywhere. If it gets into the splines on any part of the RHS transmission, it could "grit" the spline just enough to cause the spline to begin to experience the longitudinal modes described.

The shafts on both the 2.4 and 2.0 are the same, but the shaft on the 2.4 can experience 20% more stress than on the 2.0.

So am I going to lube my shafts ---> well bring me a virgin of suitable age and I might
 
freddofrog said:
0712coverfeat2.jpg



plus modes in the 1st and 2nd and 4th below

0712coverfeat5.jpg


then ultimately the torsional failure (middle orange and 3rd mode)

it will take a hell of a lot of rust to cause a crack in the outer layer that would open up, shafts crack due to fatigue caused by vibrational modes that should not be happening, once they crack, the rotational failure will occur
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You can clearly see how much thinner the shaft is around the out side where it has snapped down the middle. You're right, it is an awful lot of corrosion. The counter weight would be over that normally but it probably on the streets of Brighton somewhere. Long term corrosion for sure that makes the shaft too weak to cope with load properly, hence the torsion snap.

IMAG0346%20copy_zpsvp196o0e.jpg


I like your theory about the oil filter too. That's a very interesting point. But ultimately, how can you check for corrosion under the counter weight easily? It's a tough situation.
 
Stevearcade said:
You can clearly see how much thinner the shaft is around the out side where it has snapped down the middle. You're right, it is an awful lot of corrosion. The counter weight would be over that normally but it probably on the streets of Brighton somewhere. Long term corrosion for sure that makes the shaft too weak to cope with load properly, hence the torsion snap.

IMAG0346%20copy_zpsvp196o0e.jpg


I like your theory about the oil filter too. That's a very interesting point. But ultimately, how can you check for corrosion under the counter weight easily? It's a tough situation.
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well any shaft that snaps will start with a small crack somewhere, which will then open up. The bottom diagram in #4 shows that the type of crack (if found by regular inspection, well before the crack grows) will give the clue as to the issue that caused the crack i.e. the shaft should not snap all of a sudden, there should be a visible sign (and a vibration).

If the cracks are beginning underneath the damper (it's a damper, not a counter-weight, which is different) then yes water is getting trapped under the damper, but, it is possible that small vibrations in one mode cause the damper itself to crack or split, letting water in (although by the looks of that rust, the damper opened up a long time ago).

You might as well remove the remains of the damper completely, mate the parts back up again, and take several pics with the shaft in various rotated positions, just to see where the split began.

The shafts on my car are also heavily corroded, but from what I can see, not under the damper, and nowhere along the length that is causing any cracking. But then, I ragged the hell out of my 2005 Accord when it was only a few years old, stopped doing that a good 5 years ago.


edit: it's even possible that the damper may crack and stay like that for a year or two, then start to fall apart, causing increased vibration, causing it to fall apart more, etc, etc. They look ok on my car, and no vibrations (other than related to wheels or braking)
 
Damper makes more sense. I don't have the shaft mate. I left it with the garage. I just took photos of it on their bench before I drove away happy my car was working again.
 
That's definitely corrosion in the shaft - nothing to do with the splines or joints.


New driveshafts are £500 from Honda and £200-odd second hand on eBay unfortunately.
 
That's the second post running where you've made it about me personally rather than the topic, Brian.

I say rust, you say splines or joints, people will make their own minds up.

Now I suggest we agree to differ, and move on.
 
I think it's reasonable to suggest that corrosion caused the snap, but Brian you're arguing that the corrosion may have happened as there was already a fracture in the drive shaft.

You can see in the picture, the corrosion means the shaft is not nearly as thick as it's supposed to be. Therefore, the corrosion has resulted in that part of the shaft being unfit for the kind of loads it was designed for. Hence after a some time, it suffers a torsion snap due to corrosion.

Now, did the damper corrode and let water in causing the corrosion? Did the shaft start to fracture and vibrate, causing the damper to split, allowing water in and causing corrosion?

It's practically impossible to know and probably not worth arguing because if you've got either symptom, your drive shaft will snap and so you should replace it.

If discussions/debates are going to get personal, I will close threads. I think throwing round terms like layman isn't necessarily the most friendly or productive way to move forward a discussion based on a difference of opinion.
 
Cliffordski said:
That's the second post running where you've made it about me personally rather than the topic, Brian.

I say rust, you say splines or joints, people will make their own minds up.

Now I suggest we agree to differ, and move on.
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it's nothing to do with personality Cliff, it's to do with credentials and background in mechanical engineering the automotive field, which leads me to be able to give a more wholesome view


Stevearcade said:
I think it's reasonable to suggest that corrosion caused the snap, but Brian you're arguing that the corrosion may have happened as there was already a fracture in the drive shaft.

You can see in the picture, the corrosion means the shaft is not nearly as thick as it's supposed to be. Therefore, the corrosion has resulted in that part of the shaft being unfit for the kind of loads it was designed for. Hence after a some time, it suffers a torsion snap due to corrosion.

Now, did the damper corrode and let water in causing the corrosion? Did the shaft start to fracture and vibrate, causing the damper to split, allowing water in and causing corrosion?

It's practically impossible to know and probably not worth arguing because if you've got either symptom, your drive shaft will snap and so you should replace it.

If discussions/debates are going to get personal, I will close threads. I think throwing round terms like layman isn't necessarily the most friendly or productive way to move forward a discussion based on a difference of opinion.
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"layman" is not a personal word, it implies background in a particular field, in this instance, the field of Automotive Engineering (both words highly relevant). When I was at Rover, i can remember going to speak to someone who worked on the camshafts on one of the Rover engines, I can't remember why I had gone to see him, but I do remember that he said that cam profiles were not just about the engine's breathing, but about the noise being emitted into the engine compartment. He said that they had hundreds of cams that the evaluated before choosing the final one for production.

So a driveshaft is not just a lump of metal that is thrown onto a car. For the last few decades the people who work in Automotive Engineering each have degrees (which involve complex mathematics) and they spend a lot of time modelling the way their particular part will behave. A driveshaft will oscillate a lot every second of its life, it does not simply experience a rotational twist as a bolt would when you apply a spanner onto it. All those oscillations will eventually cause fatigue if the shaft cannot adjust its position millisecond by millisecond.

Just because you guys can see (in a couple of pictures) rust and reduced thickness does not necessarily mean that it failed because of rust and reduced thickness.

There are probably thousands of Accords out there with varying degrees of rust and reduced thickness on their driveshafts, but this does not mean that those driveshafts are about to imminently fail, it really does depend on the state-of-play in the way that the driveshaft is allowed to move its position during driving.

Now ask yourself this question: why are there no reports of this on the diesel, why no reports of it on the 2.0, why is excessive driveshaft vibration experienced more frequently on the 2.4 than on those other two, especially when the driveshaft on the 2.4 is the same as on the 2.0 ? Is excessive driveshaft vibration related to problems in the splines ? Is excessive driveshaft vibration detrimental to the life of the shaft ?

If anyone believes that a shaft snaps simply because of rust in a picture, then they are, in all honestly, speaking from a "lay" position, which bugs me, because the whole world can read this, and it will unnecessarily worry people (such as Paul S who has already "lubed" the driveshafts on his car).

I have no intention of "lubing" the driveshafts on my car, I have only bothered to look at them so as to be able to describe the situation. From what I can see, the dampers on each side are in perfect condition on my car, there is no sign of cracking or of water ingress under them. If there was, then I might expect to find heavier rusting underneath them, but even if I removed them and found heavier rust underneath them, as long as the shafts moved ok in their splines, then I wouldn't be bothered one bit.
 
freddofrog said:
If anyone believes that a shaft snaps simply because of rust in a picture, then they are, in all honestly, speaking from a "lay" position, which bugs me, because the whole world can read this, and it will unnecessarily worry people (such as Paul S who has already "lubed" the driveshafts on his car).
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My view is that this is a fact, because the shaft broke where the corrosion was, and before the corrosion became that advanced but the other factors such as forces on the shaft were the same, it didn't break.

I don't think it requires an automotive background to see that.
 
Cliffordski said:
My view is that this is a fact, because the shaft broke where the corrosion was, and before the corrosion became that advanced but the other factors such as forces on the shaft were the same, it didn't break.

I don't think it requires an automotive background to see that.
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Without having the driveshaft in your hands to examine thoroughly, you cannot state a "view" is a "fact".

The corrosion may have been like that for 5 years or more, and if it was, then what caused it to fail when it did fail ?

There is bound to be many other driveshafts out there in similar condition that have not snapped, why not ?

Why has this not been reported on the 2.0 ?

Why has this not been reported on the diesel ?

Have driveshafts snapped with less corrosion ?

As a qualified Engineer who spent 10 years in the field of Automotive engineering, these are obvious questions that require answers before jumping to conclusions and scaring inexperienced DIY'ers to death.
 
The 2.0 and diesel are irrelevant to why driveshafts snap on the 2.4.

The only matters relevant to why driveshafts snap on the 2.4 are matters that affect driveshafts on the 2.4.

The only matter that affects driveshafts on the 2.4 which changes over the years is rust.

When the rust weakens the 2.4 driveshaft enough, it snaps.

As apparent from the photos.

Fact.
 
the driveshaft on the 2.0 is the same as on the 2.4, so are you saying that, if "rust" is the sole cause, then driveshafts on the 2.0 do not "rust" ?

the driveshaft on the 2.2 is different from the one on the 2.0 and 2.4, but if "rust" is the sole cause of failure, then again 2.2 driveshafts do not "rust" ?

how long does the corrosion have to be there before the shaft fails Cliff ?

how deep does the corrosion have to be Cliff ?

does the shaft exhibit ducility around the mid-point of the shaft ?

is it coincidence that there is corrosion and some ductility, both occuring at the same point on the shaft ?

were the grooves on the splines showing signs of reduced mobility ?
 
Ok, Brian, you're calling splines, Cliff you're calling corrosion. Things are starting to get rather boring. Please continue this argument via PM or may I suggest you both go and hang out in different parts of the forum for a while ;)

It doesn't matter whether the corrosion caused the break or whether the corrosion occurred because of a fracture. If you've got either, you need to replace your drive shaft. It's pretty simple!

The point I've been making the whole time, is that my shaft had been compromised and therefore snapped. You cannot deny the corrosion in my photo is awful and it doesn't matter at this stage if the corrosion is the start of the problem or the result of a fracture. The shaft was due to snap and the corrosion is undoubtedly going to have been a major contributing factor. If your 2.4 is 13 years old and has done over 100K and doesn't have corroded drive shafts, then great. Have a medal. For some reason, mine was rotten... Now let's move on.

The moral of the story is the drive shaft snapped and it looked very bad when it was removed. In my opinion, as someone who's suffered a snapped drive shaft, if you want to avoid getting a tow and if you feel vibrations in the steering wheel, get it sorted.

I shall lastly repeat what my mechanic said to me. He explained that snapped drive shafts are fairly common. And usually there's corrosion under the damper on said drive shaft. He also said it is common across a range of manufacturers and he sees it regularly.

I'm not looking to cause alarm, I'm actually looking to reassure. We're not alone in this issue, either as 2.4 owners, or as Honda owners in general. The guy who picked me up in the tow truck said he picks up suspected drive shaft failures fairly often. They're a part of the car that ideally should last the life of the car, but often won't due to a multitude of factors. We're not going to figure out or solve all of these factors on an internet forum, but we can suggest that if you suspect a failing drive shaft, replace it before it snaps.

On a side note, my mate at work has 2.2 04 Diesel Tourer on about 130K. He had a vibrating steering wheel. Took it to his garage who replaced both drive shafts and it's cured the issue. Did he avoid a snapped drive shaft... probably, yes. Was it a 2.4, no!

Now this is a public forum where people can exchange ideas and offer advice. We don't claim to be an absolute authority on anything (at least most of us don't ;) ) and therefore if someone decides to grease their drive shafts to protect them from corrosion based on someone else's comments, that's their business. It's not we're insisting he does something potentially lethal or highly dangerous. And it doesn't warrant a two page argument about something that can never be truly diagnosed as it's now sitting in a landfill somewhere or has been melted down and recycled. All we can really go off is the comments of the highly experienced mechanic who removed the item.

Chalk it down and move along.
 
Having done a bit more digging it seems the Acura TSX uses the same driveshaft and is available on eBay for about £60 delivered from the USA.

For that price I'm just going to go ahead and change mine.
 
Well that was a fun interlude on my thread.. ;)

Cliff: Surely not genuine Honda at that price though..?

I still have my snapped driveshaft, so if there are any particular pictures folks would like to see, let me know and I'll pop them up.

If someone is really keen, they can have the broken driveshaft to look at, long as they either collect it or cover postage ;)
 
Yup. it's aftermarket - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Front-RIGHT-Passenger-CV-Axle-Shaft-***embly-Drive-Driveshaft-for-Acura-TSX-/361447412495?fits=Model%3ATSX&hash=item5427f1d30f:g:1SoAAOSw8-tWanoH
 
Mine was about £100 or so. It's a blueprint part. So far, so good. I know of several people who run blueprint without problem. But I also know of some people who've used blueprint and then changed for OEM after a while due to vibrations. I guess you have to weigh up what you can afford and if you're prepared to take the risk.
 
Miah said:
Well that was a fun interlude on my thread.. ;)

Cliff: Surely not genuine Honda at that price though..?

I still have my snapped driveshaft, so if there are any particular pictures folks would like to see, let me know and I'll pop them up.

If someone is really keen, they can have the broken driveshaft to look at, long as they either collect it or cover postage ;)
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if it can be posted using yodel for ~ £5 to £10 I'll have it - and no I'm not going to come on here with "having looked at it blah blah blah" - but I will take many many good pics of it and post them without comment. If I make any comments you are free to call me anything you like LOL

What is disappointing is that it's not possible to buy just the shaft on its own

FWIW someone in the USA posted this pic, he changed both sides :eek: after the passenger side (USA) broke



it is strange that it's always the RHS that goes (several Accord forums, several hypotheses including rust, on one forum in the US someone said it only happens on early 7th gens due to a manufacturing fault, but he didn't cite any evidence of this)
 
^ moved the pic to a new photobucket folder but then it wouldn't display, tried to put the original url back into the previous post but ran out of allowed edit time

now discovered that photobucket is undergoing maintenance, probably affecting all pics on TA that point to photobucket, it should came back

a_imag00445.jpg
 
freddofrog said:
FWIW someone in the USA posted this pic, he changed both sides :eek: after the passenger side (USA) broke

it is strange that it's always the RHS that goes (several Accord forums, several hypotheses including rust, on one forum in the US someone said it only happens on early 7th gens due to a manufacturing fault, but he didn't cite any evidence of this)
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I think it's fair to say that stuff breaks on cars! :lol: But seeing how so many people experience broken drive shafts, I would say the fault probably lies in the part to an extent. When I posted my broken drive shaft on a Acura TSX Facebook group and the comments were along the lines of "yeah, that happened to me" and "this is really common" and "loads of guys have had this, I see it a lot".

Not everyone has the problem and it seems to be more common on 2.4s that any other Accord. Perhaps the shaft could do with being just a little stronger? Perhaps a particular set of circumstances leads to the part becoming compromised, but those circumstances aren't uncommon...?
 
^ yes I think it's a combination of several factors.

One of the reasons for dampers is to alleviate torque steer, maybe the RHS receives the most torque.

Now that I've got a "driveshafts" folder in photobucket, here is a good one from an uprated Honda (I think it was a Civic but the site was heavy with advertisng so I only stayed long enough to download the picture). RHS again.

a_imag00545.jpg
 
That's just a clean snap there, surely.
 
Well, haha, the irony - just snapped mine today, and it's the LHS (the short one). The issue is clearly rust, under the damper, the rubber is old and worn and salt, water and everything else has been trapped there. I don't have a picture, but the whole area which the damper covers is maybe half the thickness of the driveshaft.
Exactly the same situation, 1st gear and taking off with normal throttle (not much rpm).
So, my recommendation is to regularly check these rubber sealings (dampers) and the condition of the shaft underneath them.
(As it appears, after some 10-12 years, these are very prone to fail).

And just to confirm, as several members have wondered
2.2 diesel shafts don't fit 2.4 or 2.0 petrol, length is the same but the the CV joints are bigger on the diesel

2.2 diesel inner cv joint has 28 teeth
2.0/2.4 petrol inner cv joint - 27 teeth
2.0/2.2/2.4 outer cv joint - 28 teeth

Unfortunately, swapping the CV joints from the diesel shaft to petrol shaft is also not possible, since the inner teeth of the joints themselves are also different.
 
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